Warfare & Tactics

Yes, I have never experienced the effects of ECM, ever. Don't bother checking my killboard or anything. Just keep spouting uninformed BS.



Don't you mean to say, you killed an utterly failfit active shield boosting scorpion packing multispectral ECM with a fleet phoon, harby, and megathron?

Good job. I wish I could one day be as much of a pro l33t pvper as you are.



First off, thanks for not being as flat-out wrong as the above quotes.

Of course, there are a lot of variables that can alter, negate, or enhance the effectiveness of ECM, but all EWAR has variables like this. Short range warp scramblers aren't any good if your enemy packs an AB, or if your enemy starts out of short scram range. Target painters aren't any good if the target your shooting is already large enough that your TP's don't do anything. Neuts aren't very good if your enemy is packing capless weapons and a capless tank.

I'm not saying that ECM isn't counterable at all. There are definitely situations in which it sucks or can fail.

But compared to other EWAR... ECM seems to have less counters than other types of EWAR, and seems to combine the effects of other EWAR.

Let's see:

Neuts - Works against cap intensive targets. Limited range compared to other EWAR, even on a Curse, and takes awhile to cap targets out.
Tracking Disruption - Works against turret ships. Pointless against things which deal primary DPS without turrets.

Webs - Good to pin down fast ships. Pointless in station games or situations where your targets are going to barely be moving.
Target Painters - Good in pretty much any situation where you're shooting something small with big guns. However, the usefulness of +40% sig is debatable compared to the usefulness of other kinds of EWAR.

Short Scram - Excels against MWDing targets. Pointless against kiting targets, unless you manage to land on them.
Long point - Works to stop anything from warping. Doesn't slow them down, though, so if they're faster than you, they can still get away unless you're supporting with webs.
Sensor Damps - Decent against ships which fight from a range. Targets can still shoot at close things. Alternatively, negates scanres.

Then we have:

ECM - Stops turret ships from firing, stops missile ships from firing (unless they use LolFofs,) prevents webs, target painters, and all sorts of scrams/points from being used, has among the best range of any EWAR type, and can refit to specialize against a certain race.

I'm just not buying that that's in line with other ewar.

As for your last point, sure, Rooks and Falcons aren't used as much as 'Canes/Cynas/Vagas, but comparing FOTM combat ships with EWAR ships is a bit unfair. A better comparison would be to compare EWAR ships with EWAR ships - compare the amount of Rooks/Falcons you see to the amount of Rapiers, Huginns, Curses, Pilgrims, Lachs, and Arazus that you see, and I'm sure you'll notice that Rooks and Falcons are superior in terms of quantity. (Or at least Falcons due to cloakiness. Rooks are somewhat rare, I'll give you that... Only reason I was using it as my example is because it was my "EFT-warrioring" platform. )

I supposed I should have specified then, ECM is the most frequently used ewar in terms of ships dedicated to it. How many people have 'Pilgrim alts' as opposed to Falcon alts I wonder?

Going from that dosen't it seem pretty clear that the problem has more to do with the bonused ECM hulls than actual ECM modules themselves?

You make several good points. ECM Boats such as Kitsunes, Blackbirds, Rooks, Falcons and Scorpions do seem overpowered. However thats one of my main points, you ever fit ECM to anything besides those ships? Good luck jamming anything. Dampeners, Painters, Webs, Scrams, and Neuts work with relative effectiveness on all ships, certainly recons and other ships get bonuses for them, but they work just fine on other ships. ECM does not. Also ECM boats(for the most part) do not apply any DPS at all. I fly with the Militia so I have quite a bit of experience with small gang PvP and ECM.

And other ECM does render significant effects on the Battlefield. Ever been in a ship with turrets when your being TD'd by an Arbitrator? How about being in a kiting fleet and you get damped so you can't target past 20k's. A lot of people fit Medium Neuts on Hurricanes, I've seen two Hurricanes neut me out in a Drake(Which uses launchers which are cap independent) and shut of my MWD and all of my tank except for my Damage Control and tear me a structurally superfluous new behind. Ever been in a kiting fleet when your overloading your MWD and your 60k's away from everyone and your tank is breaking but your still pointed by that freaking Lach or your being caught by slower ships because a Rapier has you webbed and going 100k/s with your MWD overloaded? ECM Isn't the only game in town.

Also since pretty much only those ships are seen using ECM. You will be an Instant Primary and one method I haven't seen in this forum is assigning your drones to fast tackle and having them primary any ECM that shows up on field. You don't need to lock anyone for this and It's hilarious watching a cloud of fifty drones trail behind an Inty or something and watching them tear into any ECM on field. I have made Falcons and Rooks virtually ineffective in a fleet fight by either killing them with said drones and intys or driving them off field. Also, most of these ships fit very little tank so if they have one Alpha Tempest even TECH ONE fit and you don't give a jam off your insta-popped. And God-forbid there a BS gang because most BS's can hit past 70k in their sleep.

O.K. lets say you are in a fleet fight, you have two Falcons fit with a standard rainbow fit of Two Caldari, Two Minnie, One Amarr, One Gallente and a Prop Mod. Your fleet and the enemy has 20ish Canes, Drakes and Harbis, and fast tackle which is a pretty standard for most of the small gangs I see. The ECM Pilots need to be at range usually a little beyond their optimal. They need to target and manage about 6 targets each. And the enemy MUST NOT get them within drone range, damp them, burn to them, or warp off. The enemy must also have no ECM and they must also not send fast tackle to kill them(seeing as the Falcons along with most other ECM have a paper thin tank) And the Enemy must have nothing that can hit beyond 70ish(Ignore the fact that a single T1 Fit Drake with ****** skills can do this no Prob).

So the Enemy has and does none of the things I listed above. The Gallente Jammer is useless(don't say anything about Multispecs, nobody fits Multispecs unless they fail fit. imo anyway) because they have no Gallente ships. But you still manage to jam about half of their DPS for about 90ish% of the time. You win the fight get the loot and your EPEEN gets huge.

Same scenario this time except you have two Curses. They also must warp in at range, they will neut the **** out of any fast tackle that comes close so that isn't much of a problem. The enemy must not damp them, burn to them or warp off or kill them with drones. They TD the **** out of the Canes and Harbis reducing their DPS. You win and their is much rejoicing.

Now lets say you have no recons but you fit a damp to your drakes in place of a resistance Mod. The enemy must not close to within about 30-40ish. You reduce their DPS signifcantly and you win. Same thing happens with TD's.

The basic thing I'm saying is. There are a myriad of simple and easy ways to counter ECM, and their is very little surprise factor involved because as soon as that ECM boat shows up everyone knows what it is going to do. However with the other ECM Mods you can have a very large surprise factor. (If you have ever asked why you can't Target at 30 K's or why your turrets can't hit **** you know this).

Lets say your soloing in a Rook. You have Missiles fit obviously, you have ECM Rigs fit and the minimum necessity of a Prop Mod and Point and no shield tank, which leaves you room for five jammers. With this setup you either have no tank and ECM and BCU mods in the lows or you have an Armor tank. Lets say you DID fit all Minnie jammers and all your opponents are Canes. You warp in on one cane, point it, perma-jam with two Jammers and start killing it. It does not get any DPS off on you and its drones do not aggress. You have to repeat this for the second cane that warps in. You can only kill that one cane at that point because you have one point and the other can warp off(this is assuming that the first cane doesn't simply burn away because your slow as all hell). Third Cane warps in and you can't perma-jam it but you can do close. Fourth one warps in and now you can only almost Perma-jam three canes and perma jam one. And three of those canes can warp off at anytime. If a single cane can lock you for FIVE Seconds your screwed. Basically for a soloing Rook in this situation:

1 Cane = probable
2 Canes = possible
3 Canes = probably not
4 Canes = gtfo
5 Canes = GTFO

Yes ECM works for a large variety of situations and yes it makes a ship relatively useless damage wise when it is jammed. If fit and flown correctly it can be a tremendous asset. However the other ECM mods have their own advantages and ECM is not a be-all, win-all or an Instawin button. Therefore it is not overpowered.

I was 5 years late to that meme,,,,
BECAUSE OF FALCON

It absolutly is a force multiplier. The arguement is that both sides could have their force multiplied, which is true of force multipliers in the real world, too.

Let's pretend there's a gang of six pilots. All other things being equal (I'm aware that's never the case), those six can take on a gang of six with a 50% win rate. If one of those pilots is a Falcon, and can permajam three opponents, then that gang can take on eight otherwise equal pilots with a 50% win rate.

If that gang of five plus a falcon runs into a gang of ten and two falcons, they're ******, not because they don't have force multipiers, but because they got out-forced and out-multiplied.

I'm not a fan of ECM, but that's based on it being a ****** mechanic not it being unbalanced. It's a ****** mechanic because it's most aggravating use is locking down solo ships while they are ganked by blobs, which is the single most frustrating thing in EVE.

In terms of overall EWAR, it's farily well balanced. I'd much rather see a Falcon on the field than a Curse - the Falcon is a one-trick jamming pony that can be neutralized easily by any combination of shooting it/bumping it while shooting it with F.O.F's/neuting it/having ECCM/having nuets on a fast ship/having your own jamming.

And most importantly, that Falcon/Rook will never kill you by itself or prevent you from running - where the Curse/Rapier/Arazu can pin you down so you die. Fighting a blob and having a falcon dropped on you sucks, but you disengage and live - with a Curse/Rapier/Lach you're much more likely to end up dead instead of just annoyed.

These days I look forward to seeing Falcons because with a little planning they're an easy kill - they can be a pain in the ass without planning, but if you're prepared, they're easily dealt with.

None of this means that ECM shouldn't be reworked to be a more ~fun~ mechanic, but as it is, it's fairly well balanced.

Unfortunately you can't get banned for being an idiot.

1. ECM uses 6-8 slots to be effective against multiple targets. With other recons you will need to dedicate multiple ewar mods to the same target to shut them down (multiple neuts, multiple webs, multiple [lol] damps). Even then they won't be as neutered as they would be when targeted with ECM.

2. Gallente recons use 3+ points a lot. 2 is the bare minimum (1 scram/1 long point at the least)

3. When was the last time you saw damps on anything? You have to use the recon's mid slots left from your disruptors/scrams on damps and then if you want tank you have to armor tank your Lach/Arazu making it even easier to catch which makes damps useless, especially considering you need about 3 dedicated to a single target.

I hope you be trollin.

pretty much this.
I don't get what all the moaning and fussing is about. ECM is rolling dice, the t2/higher sp pilots just have more loaded dices, doesn't mean there's gonna be wins on every roll. Unless you got prior intel or your enemies are VERY predictable, you're not gonna have all the right ecm racials fitted in a fight, and that potentially brings down your jam capabilities. Not to mention what everyone else stated in the thread already, the moment more numbers appear past a certain figure, your ecm effectiveness crashes off a cliff and more variables will turn jamming into a hair raising chore of mod management, incoming threats, aligning, bouncing back and forth, target selection, etc. (of course, there are exceptions to this as well)

Let's not forget ecm boats are usually much more thinner (and much higher on primary calling) than other ships, it's range being their biggest tank imo. So yes, if you can jam people beyond their falloff and they arn't exactly fast movers, then you pretty much dictate the field. But you're not gonna encounter that kind of fight every time you take your ecm boat out for a spin.
But yes, I can see how a small gang with a rook can possibly dominate 5 nanocanes. Then again, it was designed to dominate against that small a group of targets.


Also, here's a little secret to all the ecm haters:
There are legit and clever ways to push ecm pilots off field, all it takes is some observation.