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CSM December minutes: The EVE Economy

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CCP Xhagen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2013-01-16 16:47:11 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Dolan
Here you can discuss the "The EVE Economy" section of the CSM minutes.

You can find the full minutes here

CCP Xhagen | Associate Producer | @strangelocation
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2013-01-16 17:34:08 UTC
There's an apparent belief at CCP that a pos revamp would "only affect a small number of people".

That's wrong. Current POS are only used by a small number of people because they are poorly done and useless.

If you make them useful and not horrifically annoying, that will change!

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#3 - 2013-01-16 17:51:48 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
There's an apparent belief at CCP that a pos revamp would "only affect a small number of people".

That's wrong. Current POS are only used by a small number of people because they are poorly done and useless.

If you make them useful and not horrifically annoying, that will change!


I agree, and I pointed that out, I think Alek also pointed it out at another time.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Ampoliros
Aperture Harmonics
#4 - 2013-01-16 18:05:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ampoliros
Weaselior wrote:
There's an apparent belief at CCP that a pos revamp would "only affect a small number of people".

That's wrong. Current POS are only used by a small number of people because they are poorly done and useless.

If you make them useful and not horrifically annoying, that will change!


This is very true and needs to be stated more

POS life interacts with a large portion of EVE (wh especially, but even null/low/high and the markets regularly), and if properly revamped players would interact with them even more

I can't recall the feature, but I feel like we've been in this situation before where the following conversation happened:

CCP: "We're not going to revamp x, because nobody uses x"
CSM/Players: "nobody uses x, because x is crappy and unusable"

It's a ridiculous cycle that means that bad features get left by the wayside, when in reality it's a simple case of 'if you build it, they will come'
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#5 - 2013-01-16 19:04:22 UTC
Two step wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
There's an apparent belief at CCP that a pos revamp would "only affect a small number of people".

That's wrong. Current POS are only used by a small number of people because they are poorly done and useless.

If you make them useful and not horrifically annoying, that will change!


I agree, and I pointed that out, I think Alek also pointed it out at another time.

It's something CCP Soundwave and I disagreed (and still disagree) on.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-01-16 19:37:15 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Two step wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
There's an apparent belief at CCP that a pos revamp would "only affect a small number of people".

That's wrong. Current POS are only used by a small number of people because they are poorly done and useless.

If you make them useful and not horrifically annoying, that will change!


I agree, and I pointed that out, I think Alek also pointed it out at another time.

It's something CCP Soundwave and I disagreed (and still disagree) on.


Dear Soundwave, players would love to have their own sandcastle, that other players can kick over. But currently managing said sandcastle, and the fact they have little benefit is why players don't use them. Not because they don't like that gameplay.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Blurtmaster
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-01-16 19:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Blurtmaster
ALL MEMBERS in my corporations use POS:es EVERY DAY.

The current POS system is horrible and needs to be upgraded as it is the BASE for living in space outside stations, that is the bigger part of EVE.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-01-16 20:04:37 UTC
As a long time ceo of a nullsec corp catering to casual players, I can confirm that at least half of our members at any one time (standing 60 active at any time, cycling through many active people over the years) was interested directly in dealing with POS, many of which we had to deny for security reasons. I imagine if pos were actually useable and convenient, that number of interested people would approach 100%.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#9 - 2013-01-16 20:05:28 UTC
Nerf Soundwave.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Sven Viko VIkolander
In space we are briefly free
#10 - 2013-01-16 20:07:19 UTC
If the POS system were simplified and made more accessible to new players, I am confident more people would use them even if for no other reason than to have one. A way to hide or cloak POSes would be especially cool (I really want to feel like I have some shack out in the middle of space that I've hidden extremely well and can usefully base out of and if I am smart keep permanently hidden).

But on the topic of the economy, I think high-sec needs certain ISK nerfs (mining, industry, manufacture, etc., all the things that one gets little benefit doing in low or null sec compared with high sec and its significantly increased safety), low sec more incentives (sec status tags are a great idea) and null sec both more individual (bottom-up) incentives with more of an ability for small and esp. large groups to be self-sustaining in their null regions (and not at a disadvantage doing so). The latter ideas floated in the minutes would increase the desirability and effectiveness of small gangs in null as well I think. And some of the ideas some devs have floated lately about making PVE more like PVP would help in low and null as well.
tgl3
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-01-16 20:49:17 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
There's an apparent belief at CCP that a pos revamp would "only affect a small number of people".

That's wrong. Current POS are only used by a small number of people because they are poorly done and useless.

If you make them useful and not horrifically annoying, that will change!

So much this.
The POS system needs to be redone. If it is, more people would use them.
"People don't use them so we won't change them" - you could have applied this to the pre-rebalance frigates that noone used. Or hell, anything that was redone the past few expansions. They got redone and guess what? People use them.
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-01-16 23:11:35 UTC  |  Edited by: corbexx
Two step wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
There's an apparent belief at CCP that a pos revamp would "only affect a small number of people".

That's wrong. Current POS are only used by a small number of people because they are poorly done and useless.

If you make them useful and not horrifically annoying, that will change!


I agree, and I pointed that out, I think Alek also pointed it out at another time.


ok pos revamp will only affect like everyone in wh spac, not just a % but everyone in wh space, it woudl probably help people who run hisec pos and most alliance in low and null who run pos's, hell i dont know exact numbers but my guess is a pos change whould help a very good % of eve

wtb number of people who have pos access stuff to get true % of people affected

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Rengerel en Distel
#13 - 2013-01-17 01:53:50 UTC
If the CSM is really involved in the roadmap, they have to stress how much the POS revamp means to the community, and how much it needs to be put back into the pipeline. They've already dropped corp management changes, and now POS too. I can understand now wanting to do jesus features, but there comes a time when things just need to be done.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
I'm Down
Macabre Votum
Northern Coalition.
#14 - 2013-01-17 04:16:54 UTC
basically it's a cop out answer to a problem where they have an implemented design that would require everyone taking down old structures to be replaced with the new system. It would be a castatrophe to work on and change and they know it. So this is the answer you get from them.

Apparently innovation and design left eve in about 2006.
Vince Snetterton
#15 - 2013-01-17 05:56:29 UTC
Sven Viko VIkolander wrote:

But on the topic of the economy, I think high-sec needs certain ISK nerfs (mining, industry, manufacture, etc., all the things that one gets little benefit doing in low or null sec compared with high sec and its significantly increased safety), low sec more incentives (sec status tags are a great idea) and null sec both more individual (bottom-up) incentives with more of an ability for small and esp. large groups to be self-sustaining in their null regions (and not at a disadvantage doing so). The latter ideas floated in the minutes would increase the desirability and effectiveness of small gangs in null as well I think. And some of the ideas some devs have floated lately about making PVE more like PVP would help in low and null as well.


I see, you parrot what the minutes already said.
The destruction of high sec industry is a fait accompli.


Bye bye perfect refine in high sec. (Soundwave, page 44)
Bye bye a significant number, if not all NPC mfg slots. (Funny how null sec never asked for the science slots like copying/BPO improvements to be wiped out.) (Greyscale, page 44)
Hello significantly higher mfg taxes in high sec. (suggested by 3 CSM members)
Hello new superveld and supercordite in null sec, (suggested by 4 CSM members)

Looking forward to reading about T2 high sec industry going bye bye.

The next target by null sec is high sec Incursions.
That will be wiped out in the winter 2013 release.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#16 - 2013-01-17 06:52:50 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:

Bye bye perfect refine in high sec. (Soundwave, page 44)
Bye bye a significant number, if not all NPC mfg slots. (Funny how null sec never asked for the science slots like copying/BPO improvements to be wiped out.) (Greyscale, page 44)
Hello significantly higher mfg taxes in high sec. (suggested by 3 CSM members)
Hello new superveld and supercordite in null sec, (suggested by 4 CSM members)

Looking forward to reading about T2 high sec industry going bye bye.

Why do you feel that people living in highsec are entitled to the best quality industry and the most profitable manufacturing (T2) for no effort whatsoever?
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-01-17 06:54:23 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:

The next target by null sec is high sec Incursions.
That will be wiped out in the winter 2013 release.



But wait, someone told me no one runs those anymore. So clearly they won't be missed!

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Vince Snetterton
#18 - 2013-01-17 07:31:39 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:

Bye bye perfect refine in high sec. (Soundwave, page 44)
Bye bye a significant number, if not all NPC mfg slots. (Funny how null sec never asked for the science slots like copying/BPO improvements to be wiped out.) (Greyscale, page 44)
Hello significantly higher mfg taxes in high sec. (suggested by 3 CSM members)
Hello new superveld and supercordite in null sec, (suggested by 4 CSM members)

Looking forward to reading about T2 high sec industry going bye bye.

Why do you feel that people living in highsec are entitled to the best quality industry and the most profitable manufacturing (T2) for no effort whatsoever?


Oh, here we go again.
You guys won.
It's over.

There was a 110 page threadnaught driven by your propaganda teams that CCP mercifully ended last week.
You guys got what you wanted.
All that is left to do is gloat, like what his name from goons is doing.

You can stop the pretense that you need to drive home this meme anymore.
You will soon not only have oligopoly control of the raw materials, but the means of production.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-01-17 07:57:30 UTC
goons get all the credit for those threadnaughts?
how upsetting
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-01-17 16:08:12 UTC
Vince Snetterton wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
Vince Snetterton wrote:

Bye bye perfect refine in high sec. (Soundwave, page 44)
Bye bye a significant number, if not all NPC mfg slots. (Funny how null sec never asked for the science slots like copying/BPO improvements to be wiped out.) (Greyscale, page 44)
Hello significantly higher mfg taxes in high sec. (suggested by 3 CSM members)
Hello new superveld and supercordite in null sec, (suggested by 4 CSM members)

Looking forward to reading about T2 high sec industry going bye bye.

Why do you feel that people living in highsec are entitled to the best quality industry and the most profitable manufacturing (T2) for no effort whatsoever?


Oh, here we go again.
You guys won.
It's over.

There was a 110 page threadnaught driven by your propaganda teams that CCP mercifully ended last week.
You guys got what you wanted.
All that is left to do is gloat, like what his name from goons is doing.

You can stop the pretense that you need to drive home this meme anymore.
You will soon not only have oligopoly control of the raw materials, but the means of production.


Do we get credit also for Mittani being the most vocal for a Tech nerf too?

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
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