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CSM December minutes: The EVE UI, Art, Out of Client and CREST

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CCP Xhagen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2013-01-16 16:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Dolan
Here you can discuss the "The EVE UI, Art, Out of Client and CREST" sections of the CSM minutes.

You can find the full minutes here

CCP Xhagen | Associate Producer | @strangelocation
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#2 - 2013-01-16 17:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Chribba
I fully support the SDE to be a part of the realease plan.

And seeing as CREST is a part of Dust can we expect similar if not same features of the CREST/regular API for both games?

Will the API be extended with bounties and such as well, as described in the OOG stuff but available for 3rd party devs?

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#3 - 2013-01-16 18:25:11 UTC
Really looking forward to Crest. As long as it's very carefully considered what can be done with it.

Starting jobs sounds inocuous enough, but give me that interface and I'll be running jobs 24x7, where as now, I'm more limited by the length of the jobs. Something that takes 3 hours I can do 3 or so times per day. With an interface I can program for, then I can do it 8 times a day.

And it would all be done as individual runs, so I can tear down a POS in a matter of hours, without losing anything. I think this would be a bad thing, no?

Crest has a lot of potential, but a great deal of it is risky.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-01-16 20:57:14 UTC
We have been following CREST development for quite some time. There is a belief that it can foster an entirely new style of gameplay through using it as an interface to the market. Some of these things we have done by hand, but doing something by hand is tedious, while automating it through CREST means magical things can happen.

Here is to the rise of emergent gameplay.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#5 - 2013-01-16 22:04:51 UTC
I just will state that I still resent that Khanid's red skin was removed with the change to skin types in Crucible. Sad

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Dei
Cosmic Core Industries
#6 - 2013-01-16 22:11:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Dei
Chribba wrote:
I fully support the SDE to be a part of the realease plan.


Everyone seems to support it, and it has been this way for a while. I'm disappointed that there was literally nothing new said from the last CSM for this section. If you read that section, there was actually, literally nothing new that CCP brought to the table that had not been said before. Every paragraph is speculation by the CSM, followed by general agreement and vague promises by Seagull/QC.

Sorry if that is a bit harsh, but I was expecting a bit more, especially some sort of, "Yes this is planned, and will test the standardisation routines when the next expansion hits Singularity" for the SDE.

I am fully aware that it is not CCP's prerogative to support 3rd party developers, but if they are going down this path I would rather see them do it correctly and be enthusiastic about it, rather than making a half-arsed attempt at it and making developers annoyed in the process.
Raid'En
#7 - 2013-01-17 01:06:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Raid'En
I'm worried about the CREST permission check, there will be a big need for everyone to have a corpie knowing how to check code...
Or maybe someone like Chribba will test himself some apps and put certifications on them ?
After thinking about it, it's true that it can create a new 3rd party market ; "checking CREST code for xxx ISK, check here to see why you can trust me"

on another subject, taking the idea of a mail apps, where would be a limit for CCP on a app that would send mails to people every X minutes ?
it's not about someone having his account scammed and sending alliance mails on his name, with CREST someone can create a trial account, put his login on a CREST apps which will send mails to random people (or people he hate) every X time, just to bother them. This can't happen now as it takes to much time to do, but with an automated system it can, and if people can do it they will do it.
it will be a pain to block people again and again.
and if CCP say "you can't do it more often that Y minutes", people will make there app do it every Y+1 minutes. only way would be to make it forbidden to do it.
note : utility to automate mails can obviously also be used for good (like sending mail to make you remember something for example), so it shouldn't be removed totally, only make it so apps will be disabled if it do it wrong, and user will be banned if it do it after being warned
Rengerel en Distel
#8 - 2013-01-17 01:30:19 UTC
Aryth wrote:
We have been following CREST development for quite some time. There is a belief that it can foster an entirely new style of gameplay through using it as an interface to the market. Some of these things we have done by hand, but doing something by hand is tedious, while automating it through CREST means magical things can happen.

Here is to the rise of emergent gameplay.


I think that emergent gameplay is a reason the market needs to be excluded. It's already too easy for a bot to demolish a market, I don't think we need to make it even easier.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Rengerel en Distel
#9 - 2013-01-17 01:35:04 UTC
As for the eve UI, I still can't understand CCP's unwillingness to open it up to 3rd party developers, while handing the rest of the game to them. You can never make everyone happy with a default UI, especially when changing things that very few people have a problem with. How many people were clamoring for a target reticule change vs how many were clamoring for it be returned to the square box? Now it'll be the right click box changed to a radial menu, something most people change from the default as soon as they learn how.
If that's the one thing most other MMOs have gotten right, it's giving the tools to the players to create the UI that the players want, and let the devs work on more important things. Throw that team onto modular POS, or something else, and let the players fix the UI.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
mkint
#10 - 2013-01-17 01:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
Don't take away my snap distance! Default of 10 is so terribad I have no idea how people even function! Snap 3 for life!

Also the ship infograph thing... it doesn't sound like it actually does anything. Post a screenshot in a blog and call it a day. At most put it on the wiki.

Edit: also I'm still not done being angry about the removal of the old useful text based ctrl tab window, even after all these years. And the neocom that has less info about open windows that was made in an attempt to copy Microsoft copying Apple. That many steps down the inbred clone baby path leaves things not right. Good information and the ability to act on it being the big things lost.

Edit: crest: number of ways CCP is protecting players from malicious crest devs: 0. Number of ways CCP is discincentivizing being a malicious crest dev: 0. Number of seconds before players realize they can't trust any crest devs at all: 0.

Until players have better tools to protect themselves from malicious crest devs, such as granularity in api access controls, they would have to be pants-on-head ******** to get the stink of any crest on them. Coming soon, the new tool for hacking accounts and getting away with it, to a customer service desk near you! Now with free mockery courtesy the friendly gm's! Get yours now! Watch for our 'being framed as a botter just for lulz' packages.

Art: When are the suns going to have a realism update? They have been so obtrusively ugly for so long, it's painful. I seem to recall a dev saying something about making them fainter as you move further away, just like the real universe does. For me, everything else is fine since it can easily be ignored by someone who has issues. Not so with suns.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Raid'En
#11 - 2013-01-17 01:58:51 UTC
Oh man CCP may allow changing skills and doing PI with CREST ? That would help a lot people with multiples accounts, who are forced to log tons of alts that won't undock for the real deal. Or are playing on their main, waiting for something and can't log off, while they have things to do on alts on the same account (happened to me often for PI while on fleet for example)
Raid'En
#12 - 2013-01-17 02:27:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Raid'En
art : if POS revamp takes too much time for now, how about making it that on the first iteration art only do the new towers, while no modules at all are visible in game (ca always use 1 pixel wide placeholders if code need it for later), and after game design do his stuff ? next iteration art do the assets for the modules, and enable it for us too see.
POS revamp is both good work on game design and art, and as art say he's the last one, we could it that way, first the basic art with all the big stuff on game design, then after a few months the rest of art (which should be way more work than tower alone), and a few adjustments from game design.
Frying Doom
#13 - 2013-01-17 04:21:24 UTC
Quote:
Two step said that part of the reason some of the developers are getting burned out is because they aren't getting much support from CCP, which has talked about CREST for a while with not much concrete information, as well as not followed up on tools like the embeddable star map. He said that CCP building tools to help them instead of trying to replace them might build up some of that goodwill.

Quote:
Two step said that CCP shouldn't release a patch without the SDE being available, preferably the day before the patch. He reminded CCP that a lot of people play EVE through killboards and EFT, and having those tools broken for a week or more is a bad thing.

*Applause*

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#14 - 2013-01-17 07:20:04 UTC
Dei wrote:
Chribba wrote:
I fully support the SDE to be a part of the realease plan.


Everyone seems to support it, and it has been this way for a while. I'm disappointed that there was literally nothing new said from the last CSM for this section. If you read that section, there was actually, literally nothing new that CCP brought to the table that had not been said before. Every paragraph is speculation by the CSM, followed by general agreement and vague promises by Seagull/QC.

Sorry if that is a bit harsh, but I was expecting a bit more, especially some sort of, "Yes this is planned, and will test the standardisation routines when the next expansion hits Singularity" for the SDE.

I am fully aware that it is not CCP's prerogative to support 3rd party developers, but if they are going down this path I would rather see them do it correctly and be enthusiastic about it, rather than making a half-arsed attempt at it and making developers annoyed in the process.
Fully agree with this as well.

Raid'En wrote:
I'm worried about the CREST permission check, there will be a big need for everyone to have a corpie knowing how to check code...
Or maybe someone like Chribba will test himself some apps and put certifications on them ?
After thinking about it, it's true that it can create a new 3rd party market ; "checking CREST code for xxx ISK, check here to see why you can trust me"

While that would be possible, the biggest problem with that is someone creating one version that gets "approved" and then put in bad code afterwards. But then maybe the CREST will need to be re-applied in a new version, but I see that as highly unlikely tbh.

And thinking about your mail comment there could even go as far as suddenly you will see pilots unknowingly spamming others bc they gave out the wrong permissions.

★★★ Secure 3rd party service ★★★

Visit my in-game channel 'Holy Veldspar'

Twitter @ChribbaVeldspar
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2013-01-17 07:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Aryth wrote:
We have been following CREST development for quite some time. There is a belief that it can foster an entirely new style of gameplay through using it as an interface to the market. Some of these things we have done by hand, but doing something by hand is tedious, while automating it through CREST means magical things can happen.

Here is to the rise of emergent gameplay.


I think that emergent gameplay is a reason the market needs to be excluded. It's already too easy for a bot to demolish a market, I don't think we need to make it even easier.



I must note that emergent gameplay does not, in this case, mean botting. We of the Goonswarm Economic Cabal prize shrewd ingenuity, and do not condone botting, after all. It's more like certain types of looking at the data provided by the market which are currently somewhat obscured and require cache scraping and/or the text based "Export File" to get at could be simplified, things like that.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Imuran
Zentor Industries
#16 - 2013-01-17 14:20:48 UTC
The S&I interface is long overdue for a rework. Large scale invention amd manufacuring work is a clickfest which should be addressed and will make a lot of players happier. Even some thing as simple as repeat last command would be of benifit
Rengerel en Distel
#17 - 2013-01-17 14:53:53 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Aryth wrote:
We have been following CREST development for quite some time. There is a belief that it can foster an entirely new style of gameplay through using it as an interface to the market. Some of these things we have done by hand, but doing something by hand is tedious, while automating it through CREST means magical things can happen.

Here is to the rise of emergent gameplay.


I think that emergent gameplay is a reason the market needs to be excluded. It's already too easy for a bot to demolish a market, I don't think we need to make it even easier.



I must note that emergent gameplay does not, in this case, mean botting. We of the Goonswarm Economic Cabal prize shrewd ingenuity, and do not condone botting, after all. It's more like certain types of looking at the data provided by the market which are currently somewhat obscured and require cache scraping and/or the text based "Export File" to get at could be simplified, things like that.

I didn't mean to imply that you guys would be botting, only that it would make it even easier. If you guys get bored enough to start botting, the game will already be beyond hope.
CCP hasn't shown that market bots takes as much priority as others, so I'd be really hesitant to unleash this where hundreds or thousands of people now feel it's ok.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Flamespar
WarRavens
#18 - 2013-01-18 04:34:37 UTC
What happened to the DX11 stuff?

Oh .. and tattoos?
Dyvim Slorm
Coven of the Morrigan
#19 - 2013-01-19 19:16:04 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
As for the eve UI, I still can't understand CCP's unwillingness to open it up to 3rd party developers, while handing the rest of the game to them. You can never make everyone happy with a default UI, especially when changing things that very few people have a problem with. How many people were clamoring for a target reticule change vs how many were clamoring for it be returned to the square box? Now it'll be the right click box changed to a radial menu, something most people change from the default as soon as they learn how.
If that's the one thing most other MMOs have gotten right, it's giving the tools to the players to create the UI that the players want, and let the devs work on more important things. Throw that team onto modular POS, or something else, and let the players fix the UI.


Have to agree with this, that awful radial menu was one of the worst ideas CCP ever came up with.

CCP seem to forget at times that a UI is about "function" first and make it "pretty" second, so third party UI development would be an improvement on things IMV, allowing more player choice.
Vendictus Prime
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-01-20 14:41:50 UTC
I was wondering about any hints as to what ships are being redesigned now and also what might be a status for V3'd caps and above as structures and stations were mentioned in the CSM notes? Will we maybe see this by end of 2013?

o7
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