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CSM December minutes: Ship Balancing

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CCP Xhagen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2013-01-16 16:46:59 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Dolan
Here you can discuss the "Ship Balancing" section of the CSM minutes.

You can find the full minutes here

CCP Xhagen | Associate Producer | @strangelocation
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-01-16 18:59:06 UTC
Is there any plan to give black-ops the covert-ops cloak?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#3 - 2013-01-16 19:06:57 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Is there any plan to give black-ops the covert-ops cloak?


Not in the stopgap change. I won't rule it out as an option for the future however.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-01-16 19:19:52 UTC
Though is was not mentioned in the minutes, do you have a plan for the Orca in the command ship rebalancing?

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#5 - 2013-01-16 19:31:27 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Though is was not mentioned in the minutes, do you have a plan for the Orca in the command ship rebalancing?


We'll be looking at all the ships with warfare link bonuses.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-01-16 20:07:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Is there any plan to give black-ops the covert-ops cloak?


Not in the stopgap change. I won't rule it out as an option for the future however.

The proposed changes to the jump range and fuel costs will be welcome. But I personally don't like the thought of 2 black ops ships, the black ops skill on most of the ships is kind of wasted, it could be used to implement better combat bonuses and the velocity buff could be changed to a role bonus removing the velocity penalty from the cloaking device.
An idea that I would like to see on one in specific is the Sin, give it another turret hard point and change the hybrid damage bonus to a hybrid tracking bonus.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#7 - 2013-01-16 20:10:22 UTC
Quote:
Ytterbium and Fozzie stated that their vision for a future BO revamp (after the initial jump range/fuel
change) was that it would include two lines – a combat-oriented BO and a bridging/covert oriented one.
Alek stated some reservations about having bridging-only Black Ops, arguing that simply bridging and
flying around cloaked was a bit boring -- they should want and be able to fight. Two step suggested that
maybe a price reduction would be a big help alongside making them more useful.


By 'two lines', do you mean adding four new black ops ships to create two lineups in the same manner as Recon cruisers? So we'd have four Black Ops balanced towards combat, and four more Black-Ops dedicated towards covert/bridging?

Or are you considering placing two of the current racial black-ops in the combat role and two in covert/bridging?

If you're seriously considering this change, I would hope you're going to add four more ships, instead of pigeonholing two races out of the combat role (even more than they already are).

Katrina Oniseki
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#8 - 2013-01-16 20:17:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Zarnak Wulf
With regards to AF being 'fine':

The Ishkur could use a brush over with regards to it's drone bonuses.
The Harpy could use it's damage bonus moved to a frigate bonus rather then a AF bonus.
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2013-01-16 21:16:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Unforgiven Storm
arent't at least the dreads and carriers be reviewed after the battleships in this summer expansion. In previous blogs I remember someone speaking of reducing skill requiments to BS4 for carriers.

Also caldari/shield carriers sucks compared with armor, minmatar dreadnought is ****, and the citadel torpedoes that my Caldari Dreadnought fires can be speed tanked by any super going more than 10m a second, only hitting for ~60% max damage and totally need to be balanced, specially when we compare them with capital turrent ammo, where I can use a turrent fitted dread to blap ships!

Please tell me carriers and dreads are getting some love this summer?

Unforgiven Storm for CSM 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. (If I don't get in in the next 5 years I will quit trying) :-)
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#10 - 2013-01-16 22:19:02 UTC
Please rebalance the Pirate frigates, especially the Worm, it needs some serious work.

The Tears Must Flow
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#11 - 2013-01-16 22:49:57 UTC
Sigh.. I have to work through it all to find the few pvp related things?


Sigh.. I guess i better get to work.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#12 - 2013-01-16 23:14:39 UTC
There was no mention of interceptors in the minutes... would you like to comment with your view point on them Fozzie in terms of balance?

I am by the opinion that interceptors should have a longer base targeting range +5-10km of their current as a minimum.... Mainly on the tackle range bonused interceptors, as a t2 point by itself has 30km range, and using a stiletto as example has 31.25km lock range at lvl 5 skills, consider overloading the point while also under skirmish links...

I personly think that ehp and speed, agility and such is fine as is, perhaps some slot layouts on some of the interceptors could be looked at, but some of them could use a small PG boost

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Burseg Sardaukar
Free State Project
#13 - 2013-01-17 00:09:54 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Please rebalance the Pirate frigates, especially the Worm, it needs some serious work.


Yes it definitely does. It's fitting is rough and its DPS is god awful. A unique perk could be a drone damage bonus, which is lacking with frigates.

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!
Aliventi
Rattini Tribe
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#14 - 2013-01-17 01:27:13 UTC
I love the BO stopgap changes!!! You are my hero! I didn't actually see when they were going to hit tranquility in the notes. Can you please release this in the retribution point release?
fukier
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-01-17 03:27:57 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
I love the BO stopgap changes!!! You are my hero! I didn't actually see when they were going to hit tranquility in the notes. Can you please release this in the retribution point release?


i have a feeling in the feb 1.1 retribution we will see this go live.
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Shinnen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-01-17 11:24:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Shinnen
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

The black ops skill on most of the ships is kind of wasted



I don't think you understand the extreme usefulness of the black ops skill.

At level 4, the Black Ops skill allows your Black Ops ship to travel faster cloaked than uncloaked.

Why is this important? Because it allows for "instawarp" out of cloak.

All ships when they uncloak have to get up to speed (3/4ths of their total speed) in order to go into warp.

In a Black Ops ship, with the skill at level 4 for example, your cloaked speed is faster than your uncloaked speed, so much so, that once you hit 1/2 of your total speed while cloaked, you can uncloak and instawarp (because you'll already be at 3/4ths total uncloaked speed).

With level 5 skills, a Redeemer needs to reach only (roughly) 48% of it cloaked total speed to be able to uncloak and instawarp, cutting out a lot of align time.
Random Woman
Very Professional Corporation
#17 - 2013-01-17 11:53:56 UTC
Well covert ops cloak kinda does the same, just that you can warp cloaked too :)

I mean its not like the tank/dmg of a cloaky BLOPS is very freightening when you look at ships like the Proteus, that can do just that, just better. So the Reddemer will stay the best BLOPS, because it has most Low slots for Cargo Expanders (Jumpfuel), because thats all they are, fancy shortrange jump bridges.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#18 - 2013-01-17 12:35:20 UTC
Why aren't T2 Covert Ops frigates a re-balancing priority?

T1 Exploration frigates got a boost last year, when they were given huge drones bays. It ought to be a priority to give a similar boost to Covert Ops frigates, so that it makes sense to use a T2 for exploration and the subsequent site exploitation.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-01-17 13:00:21 UTC
Shinnen wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

The black ops skill on most of the ships is kind of wasted



I don't think you understand the extreme usefulness of the black ops skill.

At level 4, the Black Ops skill allows your Black Ops ship to travel faster cloaked than uncloaked.

Why is this important? Because it allows for "instawarp" out of cloak.

All ships when they uncloak have to get up to speed (3/4ths of their total speed) in order to go into warp.

In a Black Ops ship, with the skill at level 4 for example, your cloaked speed is faster than your uncloaked speed, so much so, that once you hit 1/2 of your total speed while cloaked, you can uncloak and instawarp (because you'll already be at 3/4ths total uncloaked speed).

With level 5 skills, a Redeemer needs to reach only (roughly) 48% of it cloaked total speed to be able to uncloak and instawarp, cutting out a lot of align time.

While I will admit that proposing just removing the cloaking velocity as a role bonus would be underwelming, a 500% cloaked velocity bonus would be better, your concept about warp is odd as such in most enviroments where you would need to GTFO you probally cannot cloak as you might be targeted, if you are traveling and system looks good, cloaking is kinda frivilous.
Point being, the cloaked velocity bouns is not what I would consider a good T2 ship skill. It would be best applied as a role bonus like the SB covert ops bonus.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#20 - 2013-01-17 13:05:15 UTC
EAFs were mentioned only in one sentence, any light on what kind of tweaks we can expect to them?

I'd personally be happy to see (in addition to EWAR stats balancing to be in line with T1):

Role bonus: -100% targeting delay after decloaking

Would open up some nice uses, they'd still be fragile and couldn't warp cloaked like recons.

Salpad wrote:
Why aren't T2 Covert Ops frigates a re-balancing priority?

T1 Exploration frigates got a boost last year, when they were given huge drones bays. It ought to be a priority to give a similar boost to Covert Ops frigates, so that it makes sense to use a T2 for exploration and the subsequent site exploitation.


Because T2 != better T1, it means specialization in a certain task. Covert Ops frigates specialize in covert ops duties on battlefield.

.
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