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CSM December minutes: The CSM

First post First post
Author
CCP Xhagen
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1 - 2013-01-16 16:46:42 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Dolan
Here you can discuss "The CSM" section of the CSM minutes.

You can find the full minutes here

CCP Xhagen | Associate Producer | @strangelocation

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2013-01-16 17:02:12 UTC
It is pretty obvious from these notes, and previous threads, that Trebor spends a great deal of time plotting to grant himself more power in the CSM, and to ensure those he dislikes have less.

Oh boy, reap it baby.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#3 - 2013-01-16 17:10:49 UTC
Aryth wrote:
It is pretty obvious from these notes, and previous threads, that Trebor spends a great deal of time plotting to grant himself more power in the CSM, and to ensure those he dislikes have less.

Oh boy, reap it baby.


Confirming that Trebor basically spends all his time plotting how to take power away from the rest of us... Roll

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#4 - 2013-01-16 17:11:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kelduum Revaan
Aryth wrote:
It is pretty obvious from these notes, and previous threads, that Trebor spends a great deal of time plotting to grant himself more power in the CSM...
Confirming this, and he wont stop until he has dissolved the senate, completed construction of his Death Star and has wiped out the rebels at their hidden base.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2013-01-16 17:19:02 UTC
Yet, we have entire threads to the revamp proposal, and again, a huge portion of CSM time spent theorycrafting how to vote each other off the island.

It is pretty clear that previous years of nullsec blocs showing some restraint in the number of people we vote in was misguided. If we are going to play survivor in space, time to stack the deck.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
The Network.
#6 - 2013-01-16 17:19:05 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Aryth wrote:
It is pretty obvious from these notes, and previous threads, that Trebor spends a great deal of time plotting to grant himself more power in the CSM...
Confirming this, and he wont stop until he has dissolved the senate, completed construction of his Death Star and has wiped out the rebels at their hidden base.

The regional governors will have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#7 - 2013-01-16 17:22:57 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Yet, we have entire threads to the revamp proposal, and again, a huge portion of CSM time spent theorycrafting how to vote each other off the island.

It is pretty clear that previous years of nullsec blocs showing some restraint in the number of people we vote in was misguided. If we are going to play survivor in space, time to stack the deck.


I think you are misreading. We explicitly did not want CSM to turn into Survivor, and that is why we didn't like the "vote someone off CSM" ideas.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#8 - 2013-01-16 17:23:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Aryth wrote:
Yet, we have entire threads to the revamp proposal, and again, a huge portion of CSM time spent theorycrafting how to vote each other off the island.

It is pretty clear that previous years of nullsec blocs showing some restraint in the number of people we vote in was misguided. If we are going to play survivor in space, time to stack the deck.


This is skewing the conversation quite a bit. Some of us were quite adamant that the CSM should NOT be a place to vote each other off the island. Your restraint has been commendable, TIA for not using this as an opportunity to go against your better judgement just to prove a point.

In addition - it should be noted that "spent a lot of time" is incredibly hard to measure based on the minutes. Not only do different authors use differing amounts of detail, but some sections are heavily NDA edited. To put it bluntly, page count and minutes-length do not correlate very well to time spent on a given subject at the summit. To claim such is to mislead.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

IrJosy
Club 1621
#9 - 2013-01-16 17:23:47 UTC
Aryth wrote:
Yet, we have entire threads to the revamp proposal, and again, a huge portion of CSM time spent theorycrafting how to vote each other off the island.

It is pretty clear that previous years of nullsec blocs showing some restraint in the number of people we vote in was misguided. If we are going to play survivor in space, time to stack the deck.

Aryth for CSM!
Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#10 - 2013-01-16 17:23:52 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
The regional governors will have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line.
Don't be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to get elected to the CSM is insignificant next to the power of the J├Ągerbomb.
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-01-16 17:31:08 UTC
This thread is off to a great start for entertainment value.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2013-01-16 17:31:17 UTC
While I completely agree with the CSM's "no darius's" ideas, I'm not really thrilled at the constant attempts to make sure there are as few 0.0 alliance reps as possible. The current CSM had broad representation, but Trebor's constant refrains against 0.0 voting power appear to be gaining credibility the more he repeats them despite the clear diversity of the current CSM.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2013-01-16 17:31:26 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Aryth wrote:
Yet, we have entire threads to the revamp proposal, and again, a huge portion of CSM time spent theorycrafting how to vote each other off the island.

It is pretty clear that previous years of nullsec blocs showing some restraint in the number of people we vote in was misguided. If we are going to play survivor in space, time to stack the deck.


This is skewing the conversation quite a bit. Some of us were quite adamant that the CSM should NOT be a place to vote each other off the island. Your restraint has been commendable, TIA for not using this as an opportunity to go against your better judgement just to prove a point.

In addition - it should be noted that "spent a lot of time" is incredibly hard to measure based on the minutes. Not only do different authors use differing amounts of detail, but some sections are heavily NDA edited. To put it bluntly, page count and minutes-length do not correlate very well to time spent on a given subject at the summit. To claim such is to mislead.


Yes, I agree that some of the CSM, Death especially showed he understood the issue. His opinion didn't matter. Just because you do not like your fellow CSM members, does not grant you the authority or power to vote them off the island. The players elected those representatives, if they sit on their butt eating pizza and never participating, that is their right.

This is the 2nd time the CSM has debated revamping the rules to suit themselves. Each time it is the same persons leading the charge. The fact that Verite seems complicit in this is another whole issue. There is nothing misleading about the previous thread where Trebor quite openly stated he wanted to nerf the power of null-sec voting blocks, and indeed said much the same in these minutes.

The CSM can try to deflect from the issue with sarcasm all you want, but it doesn't negate the fact that multiple times now, the CSM has spent precious time debating the finer points of vote rigging and Survivor in space.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Kais Fiddler
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-01-16 17:34:47 UTC
I'm enjoying the star wars references, even if they don't contribute to your argument at all.
Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#15 - 2013-01-16 17:37:14 UTC
Kais Fiddler wrote:
I'm enjoying the star wars references, even if they don't contribute to your argument at all.


In other news, Goons began construction of a new orbital platform. The internal nickname....Votestar

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2013-01-16 17:39:49 UTC
Kelduum Revaan wrote:
Aryth wrote:
It is pretty obvious from these notes, and previous threads, that Trebor spends a great deal of time plotting to grant himself more power in the CSM...
Confirming this, and he wont stop until he has dissolved the senate, completed construction of his Death Star and has wiped out the rebels at their hidden base.


Just wanted to make sure I had this quoted for later.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
The Network.
#17 - 2013-01-16 17:47:46 UTC
We spent about a half hour (including talk mixed in about CSM roles/responsibilities in general being reflected/updated in the White Paper)

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#18 - 2013-01-16 17:48:52 UTC
Aryth wrote:


Yes, I agree that some of the CSM, Death especially showed he understood the issue. His opinion didn't matter. Just because you do not like your fellow CSM members, does not grant you the authority or power to vote them off the island. The players elected those representatives, if they sit on their butt eating pizza and never participating, that is their right.


That would be true except for the fact that CCP is paying real money to fly us to Iceland, as well as spending real time talking to us. My view is that CCP should make sure they are getting their money/times worth.

Aryth wrote:

This is the 2nd time the CSM has debated revamping the rules to suit themselves. Each time it is the same persons leading the charge. The fact that Verite seems complicit in this is another whole issue. There is nothing misleading about the previous thread where Trebor quite openly stated he wanted to nerf the power of null-sec voting blocks, and indeed said much the same in these minutes.

The CSM can try to deflect from the issue with sarcasm all you want, but it doesn't negate the fact that multiple times now, the CSM has spent precious time debating the finer points of vote rigging and Survivor in space.


The changes to the rules would do very little to "suit ourselves". Kicking off inactive people helps CCP, and I guess it would slightly help in that we would have more people to write summit minutes.

As I said in the minutes themselves, (page 33)
Quote:

Two step: As someone who is not running again, but who has been approached by 6 candidates who want to represent WH space, my big concern is that a new system doesn't result in similar candidates committing mutual suicide.


and later on (page 34):
Quote:

Veritas: That's not what I'm saying. The two problems for me are the spoiler effect [where a broad group doesn't get represented because they can't focus on one candidate], because we as a group want them to be represented; and second, under the current voting system, not only do organized blocs vote effectively (within themselves, so their candidate(s) are good), they have extra information that means their votes count for more, so they can run -- and elect -- more candidates than a less-organized group. That's a problem.
Two step: I'm not as concerned about the second one, because there should be a benefit to working.


I have no problem with organized groups outperforming unorganized ones, I have a problem with spoiler effects. That was, and is, my only objective with voting reform.

With that being said, I think that having a broad representation is super important for the CSM to be useful to CCP. A CSM made up of all nullsec guys (or all highsec guys, if they were forced to vote or something) would be much less useful to CCP or the players.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#19 - 2013-01-16 17:53:29 UTC
Aryth wrote:
The CSM can try to deflect from the issue with sarcasm all you want, but it doesn't negate the fact that multiple times now, the CSM has spent precious time debating the finer points of vote rigging and Survivor in space.


And saying that we debated these issues without recognizing that much of what we discussed was NOT allowing the votes to be rigged or for the CSM to become Survivor in space is blatantly misleading.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Aryth
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2013-01-16 17:58:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Aryth
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
We spent about a half hour (including talk mixed in about CSM roles/responsibilities in general being reflected/updated in the White Paper)


For this summit. This does not account for the previous one where the same things were discussed. Or the hilarious meltdown of a thread where the CSM (Trebor) proposed a new system to limit the power of null blocs. So in all told, the CSM has spent far too much time debating ways in which they can somehow either disenfranchise voters, play survivor in space, or somehow force unpaid volunteer consultants to do more unpaid work.

CCP doesn't deserve anything from the CSM, and I find arguments to that effect misguided. They derive far more value from unpaid consulting than they spend on 7 plane tickets and hotels in Iceland. They are coming out far ahead, recognize that fact.


Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Aryth wrote:
The CSM can try to deflect from the issue with sarcasm all you want, but it doesn't negate the fact that multiple times now, the CSM has spent precious time debating the finer points of vote rigging and Survivor in space.


And saying that we debated these issues without recognizing that much of what we discussed was NOT allowing the votes to be rigged or for the CSM to become Survivor in space is blatantly misleading.


I would agree, if not for the fact this keeps occurring. The debate should have been over already, yet it is not. If what you say is true, why does this keep occurring? If you keep insisting on members of the CSM steering summits to topics such as how to limit the power of player votes, and specifically null-sec, the CSM and CCP should expect a response.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.

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