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Dreads and Nuets wtf?

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MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#41 - 2013-01-16 02:31:32 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Oh god, the Triage Carriers. Brick tanked mega-triage Carriers. If they could energy transfer to each other then that would be ridiculous. Both just run the Triage modules and run the local reps (with a full tank setup since they don't need cap mods) allowing them to tank almost anything, meanwhile giving out remote reps constantly to everyone else while sharing cap between each other.


sounds like guardians...

a ddd can alpha a carrier right?

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#42 - 2013-01-16 02:48:15 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Oh god, the Triage Carriers. Brick tanked mega-triage Carriers. If they could energy transfer to each other then that would be ridiculous. Both just run the Triage modules and run the local reps (with a full tank setup since they don't need cap mods) allowing them to tank almost anything, meanwhile giving out remote reps constantly to everyone else while sharing cap between each other.


sounds like guardians...

a ddd can alpha a carrier right?

I think I've heard of Archons being able to brick against a single DD, but that's a single fit designed to do almost nothing else. DD's should one-shot any carrier, but they can't be used in low-sec. I know that a dread or two should overcome their tank, it's just that you could have two triage carriers having infinite local and remote rep due to cap transfers between them, in addition to not needing cap mods to keep their cap alive until they come out of triage to recieve remote cap transfer.

In fact 2 cap energy transfers can keep each Archon cap stable at 100% with no cap mods. And for ***** and giggles, you can put a couple SeBo's on them to make them lock even faster, since you don't have cap rechargers blocking up the mids.

I like the thought of ships being neutable should also be able to be capped up by allies. But I just can't help but think of these carriers, you know?
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#43 - 2013-01-16 03:26:41 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
I know that a dread or two should overcome their tank, it's just that you could have two triage carriers having infinite local and remote rep due to cap transfers between them, in addition to not needing cap mods to keep their cap alive until they come out of triage to recieve remote cap transfer.

In fact 2 cap energy transfers can keep each Archon cap stable at 100% with no cap mods. And for ***** and giggles, you can put a couple SeBo's on them to make them lock even faster, since you don't have cap rechargers blocking up the mids.

I like the thought of ships being neutable should also be able to be capped up by allies. But I just can't help but think of these carriers, you know?

So carriers would be like capital logistics ships then? Last I checked a basi/guardian does pretty much exactly what you just described, only on a smaller hull and without the ewar immunity (so like the relationship between a dread and a BS, for example)
Rajere
Vicious Inc
#44 - 2013-01-16 04:55:07 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
I know that a dread or two should overcome their tank, it's just that you could have two triage carriers having infinite local and remote rep due to cap transfers between them, in addition to not needing cap mods to keep their cap alive until they come out of triage to recieve remote cap transfer.

In fact 2 cap energy transfers can keep each Archon cap stable at 100% with no cap mods. And for ***** and giggles, you can put a couple SeBo's on them to make them lock even faster, since you don't have cap rechargers blocking up the mids.

I like the thought of ships being neutable should also be able to be capped up by allies. But I just can't help but think of these carriers, you know?

So carriers would be like capital logistics ships then? Last I checked a basi/guardian does pretty much exactly what you just described, only on a smaller hull and without the ewar immunity (so like the relationship between a dread and a BS, for example)

Carriers are capital logistic ships. What they are talking about is in triage where carriers not only become super logi, but more to the point, achieve insane local reps akin to old school dual rep sieged dreads, limited only by their capacitor. If they were able to receive remote cap xfer from other carriers while in triage they would be rediculously overpowered.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#45 - 2013-01-16 06:00:12 UTC
Rajere wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
I know that a dread or two should overcome their tank, it's just that you could have two triage carriers having infinite local and remote rep due to cap transfers between them, in addition to not needing cap mods to keep their cap alive until they come out of triage to recieve remote cap transfer.

In fact 2 cap energy transfers can keep each Archon cap stable at 100% with no cap mods. And for ***** and giggles, you can put a couple SeBo's on them to make them lock even faster, since you don't have cap rechargers blocking up the mids.

I like the thought of ships being neutable should also be able to be capped up by allies. But I just can't help but think of these carriers, you know?

So carriers would be like capital logistics ships then? Last I checked a basi/guardian does pretty much exactly what you just described, only on a smaller hull and without the ewar immunity (so like the relationship between a dread and a BS, for example)

Carriers are capital logistic ships. What they are talking about is in triage where carriers not only become super logi, but more to the point, achieve insane local reps akin to old school dual rep sieged dreads, limited only by their capacitor. If they were able to receive remote cap xfer from other carriers while in triage they would be rediculously overpowered.

^What he said. I was just screwing around with an Archon that didn't need cap management. 2 Archons slinging 2 cap transfers each between them get 2 outgoing reps apiece, and have a local tank of over 17k. They have over 1600 mm sig res, allowing them to instalock almost anything, and they're both cap stable at 100%. They're immune to Ewar, so you can't ECM them to remove those perma-reps/cap, and with that kind of cap-boosting power you can't even neut them short of bringing out a dozen Bhaalgorns, costing them over twice the value of the carriers, at least. And this wasn't some fancy deadspace fit. It was all t1/t2 stuff. With an EHP of over 2m. Not even including implants.

This isn't going to the level of cap logistics. This is god tier logistics. This is taking the basi/guardians and making them completely invincible, short of dropping twice the amount of dreads for each one, or super-caps. They also give un-blockable outgoing reps at ridiculous amounts.
eddie valvetino
Bi-Polar Bears
#46 - 2013-01-16 10:50:20 UTC
the clue is in the name

E-War (Electronic Warfare) and ECM/ECCM (Electronic Counter Measures).

See, the key here is the word Electronic.

Neuts are not and have never been Eletronic, they are Engineering mods...
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#47 - 2013-01-16 11:58:09 UTC
Kirkwood Ross wrote:
Instead of fitting Cap Recharger IIs in your mids you should replace them with Large Cap Battery IIs. Gives some protection against neuting until you exit siege then can get cap from your fleetmates.


I think cap batteries only add a fixed amount, so semiconductors are better i guess.

And no, the only way to kill a cap with a small subcap-fleet is to suck him dry in 90% of the cases. If that'd be done, flying a capital means you're invulnerable until people get some serious dps on gird.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#48 - 2013-01-16 13:28:06 UTC
I don't think capitals need an extra level of defense from subcap fleets. Capital sized cap boosters/batteries, or invulnerability to neuts would just make subcaps considerably less relevant for fights which is a bad thing
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#49 - 2013-01-16 13:47:28 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:

This isn't going to the level of cap logistics. This is god tier logistics. This is taking the basi/guardians and making them completely invincible, short of dropping twice the amount of dreads for each one, or super-caps. They also give un-blockable outgoing reps at ridiculous amounts.

First bit is wrong. Triage carriers can't rr each other, so, for example, 5 dreads would blap 5 carriers quite quickly and easily, because carrier triage reps don't stack on each other. Second bit is true, tbh I've always found it odd that the capital logi ships are designed to be logi support for sub cap fleets.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#50 - 2013-01-16 14:36:18 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:

This isn't going to the level of cap logistics. This is god tier logistics. This is taking the basi/guardians and making them completely invincible, short of dropping twice the amount of dreads for each one, or super-caps. They also give un-blockable outgoing reps at ridiculous amounts.

First bit is wrong. Triage carriers can't rr each other, so, for example, 5 dreads would blap 5 carriers quite quickly and easily, because carrier triage reps don't stack on each other. Second bit is true, tbh I've always found it odd that the capital logi ships are designed to be logi support for sub cap fleets.


Or supercap fleets...

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Justin Cody
War Firm
#51 - 2013-01-16 14:44:29 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Oh god, the Triage Carriers. Brick tanked mega-triage Carriers. If they could energy transfer to each other then that would be ridiculous. Both just run the Triage modules and run the local reps (with a full tank setup since they don't need cap mods) allowing them to tank almost anything, meanwhile giving out remote reps constantly to everyone else while sharing cap between each other.


sounds like guardians...

a ddd can alpha a carrier right?

I think I've heard of Archons being able to brick against a single DD, but that's a single fit designed to do almost nothing else. DD's should one-shot any carrier.


No. Most carriers and even some dreads can be set up with a rep setup that can take a single DD. This mainly comes down to skills and isk. Spending enough isk...I can get a phoenix for example to roughly 11M ehp. That is an omni tank not specific to one race...so yeah multiple DD's there. With a chimera with enough hardeners probably something similar and just as much so if not more so for the archon and rev. Thanatos and Nidhoggur might have more trouble with the Nid having possible a stronger shield buffer and the thanatos having more armor buffer.

Play around a bit in EFT/Pyfa or whatever other tool you wish. You may be surprised.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#52 - 2013-01-16 18:39:51 UTC
Just because amarr recons have an neut bonus does not mean that neuts are ewar. They are just guns that shoot your capacitor. Ewar are effects that reverse themselves completely and instantly when they are shut off. There is no inconsistency in allowing neutralizers to hit sieged dreads or triaged carriers while not allowing remote repair or remote capacitor assistance.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2013-01-17 02:54:19 UTC
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:
Heh.

If your mind is blown by the fact that neuts arent classified as "ewar" and can affect sieged dreads, triaged carriers and supercapitals, wait until you learn that the target spectrum breaker can break the lock of all of these.

Oh.


I can see it going either way on that spectrum breaker. It's not a targeted effect, it's a defense. If you don't target that ship, the effect doesn't come into play. As such, I can see it going either way as an "EW" or held like shields/armor.

As for "immunity" -- if it's "EW" with neuts included, then webs and points should also be in that bag along with the rest and it should be tied to the "immunity" -- as in no ability to do anything to a super capital -- "god mode" style.

If it effects a super cap, it should effect these ships in siege/triage modes and removal from capitals should also be removal from supers. As such, I wouldn't be in favor of removing negatives from them -- getting rid of positives and balancing *THAT* way? Yes but not negatives.

Bigger should not equal "I win" nor even come close to it. Smaller ships should have the ability to mess with/cripple bigger ships.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#54 - 2013-01-17 05:22:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Barrogh Habalu
With that "drop multiple dreds" and "bring supercapitals" suggestions as counters to (imaginary so far) cap-chaining triage carriers, don't forget that carriers are important parts of environements that don't practically (or at all sometimes) support massive dred fleets and supercaps: relatively large lowsec/NPC0.0 groups and their warfare and wormholes. Don't forget that there carriers are still massive things that don't go around in fleets and are more akin to what you could see carrier as IRL. Those hypothetical monsters that are discussed ITT will easily ruin environements I mentioned, especially wormholes.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-01-18 15:29:36 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
Goldensaver wrote:
Oh god, the Triage Carriers. Brick tanked mega-triage Carriers. If they could energy transfer to each other then that would be ridiculous. Both just run the Triage modules and run the local reps (with a full tank setup since they don't need cap mods) allowing them to tank almost anything, meanwhile giving out remote reps constantly to everyone else while sharing cap between each other.


sounds like guardians...

a ddd can alpha a carrier right?

I think I've heard of Archons being able to brick against a single DD, but that's a single fit designed to do almost nothing else.


It's terribly easy to set up a carrier to tank a doomsday and it has nothing to do with one-trick ponies.

No sig.
XxRTEKxX
256th Shadow Wing
Phantom-Recon
#56 - 2013-01-21 06:53:46 UTC
Since when did Capacitor Warfare start being referred to as Electronic Warfare?
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2013-01-21 11:31:09 UTC
XxRTEKxX wrote:
Since when did Capacitor Warfare start being referred to as Electronic Warfare?

Why basing balancing decisions (or suggestions of ones) upon semantics would be a better question.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#58 - 2013-01-22 18:43:02 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
XxRTEKxX wrote:
Since when did Capacitor Warfare start being referred to as Electronic Warfare?

Why basing balancing decisions (or suggestions of ones) upon semantics would be a better question.

The argument is that it's an imbalanced mechanic, because neuts work but cap transfers do not.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#59 - 2013-01-22 18:58:41 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
XxRTEKxX wrote:
Since when did Capacitor Warfare start being referred to as Electronic Warfare?

Why basing balancing decisions (or suggestions of ones) upon semantics would be a better question.

The argument is that it's an imbalanced mechanic, because neuts work but cap transfers do not.


The problem is that if you "balanced" it, then a couple Triage carriers could keep each other capped up and coasting out of Triage (to receive RR) against virtually any force short of Blap Dreads or Supers (with proper re-fitting and Triage cycle management, of course). Subcaps simply cannot reasonably defeat a 20kEHP/second tank on top of 2m EHP in the 5 minutes it takes to coast out and start receiving reps from the other triage carriers if the carriers are able to negate the effects of neuts while in triage (i.e. receiving Cap Transfers).

They would be an almost absolute I-Win-Button against subcaps. And that es no bueno, Senhor.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Craggus
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-01-23 06:51:33 UTC
Yes, Cap sized capacitor injectors. Those pesky Bhaal's..

Roll
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