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Rebuttal: Nerf Without Cause: Jump Drives

First post First post
Author
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2013-01-15 23:10:20 UTC
Fanatic Row wrote:
The mechanics were not opposed because everybody was happy about getting bigger and more expensive toys, with no thought about how it would play out in the long run. Pure selfishness and shortsightedness. You'd think people who had to deal with AoE doomsdays would have thought twice.

Now everyone is acting like they didn't ask for the changes; granted, some were forced on 0.0 by CCP but when it comes to supercaps everyone wanted to play "My ISK beats your ISK".

I wasn't actually talking about supercaps.

Fanatic Row wrote:
And "in the spirit of Vuk Lau" is hardly a personal attack. It's an attack on the playstyle of caring **** all for the enjoyment of the massess, in order to appease the egos of the few.

That hasn't been my experience at all with him.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#82 - 2013-01-15 23:11:42 UTC
Andski wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
A cyno mass limit is the right choice because it doesn't hurt individual pilots. Want to move a capital? No problem. Want to supply nullsec with a couple of jump freighters at the same time? No problem. Want to drop a few dreads or triage carriers into a fight? No problem. Want to move 350 supercapitals to the other side of the map within 5 minutes? Nope.jpg. Super blobs should have to be deployed long in advance of their usage. If you want to drop in unannounced to a fight, then do it with 5-10 supers, not 350.


"I want to be able to stomp people without risk of interference from PL"


Except that the response would simply be to have the first X ships light cynos (in combat) or eject kestrels and light cynos from them (to be asploded after their mass is used up, out of combat). Then the X^2 ships that come through those cynos light their cynos, and x^3 ships come through.

In other words, PL would have no trouble continuing to interfere. Unless you think you can clear X brick tanked Archons from the field before anyone can jump to its cyno?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2013-01-15 23:13:08 UTC
yeah if i was to think of the top two things that RAZOR and Vuk Lau have been historically known to hate above all else, I'd say "lots of blues" and "presence of carebears"
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#84 - 2013-01-15 23:14:06 UTC
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Non of them holds significant sov.


Pandemic Legion doesn't generally hold sov either, but to pretend they aren't a powerhouse in nullsec politics is still mighty stupid.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#85 - 2013-01-15 23:15:10 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Andski wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
A cyno mass limit is the right choice because it doesn't hurt individual pilots. Want to move a capital? No problem. Want to supply nullsec with a couple of jump freighters at the same time? No problem. Want to drop a few dreads or triage carriers into a fight? No problem. Want to move 350 supercapitals to the other side of the map within 5 minutes? Nope.jpg. Super blobs should have to be deployed long in advance of their usage. If you want to drop in unannounced to a fight, then do it with 5-10 supers, not 350.


"I want to be able to stomp people without risk of interference from PL"


Except that the response would simply be to have the first X ships light cynos (in combat) or eject kestrels and light cynos from them (to be asploded after their mass is used up, out of combat). Then the X^2 ships that come through those cynos light their cynos, and x^3 ships come through.

In other words, PL would have no trouble continuing to interfere. Unless you think you can clear X brick tanked Archons from the field before anyone can jump to its cyno?


Honestly this man hit's the nail on the head. When it comes to finding innovative ways to take the field PL definitely is heads above the rest.

I've wanted to do the ghost riding thing ever since I heard about it in a BR, that sounds amazingly fun.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2013-01-15 23:16:07 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Non of them holds significant sov.


Pandemic Legion doesn't generally hold sov either, but to pretend they aren't a powerhouse in nullsec politics is still mighty stupid.

let's see them take a few systems in Omist or Querious first before we consider them ready for discussion alongside the "big boys".
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#87 - 2013-01-15 23:17:11 UTC
mynnna wrote:
I think CCP is naive if they think nerfing jump range will have much of an effect. Unless we're talking about things like "jump drive calibration has been removed as a skill and the skillpoints refunded" or something similarly ridiculous, in which case I hope you like making multiple jumps even for fighting within a single region, much less your neighbors in the next region over.


Well it would certainly make my Carrier even more useless than it already is.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#88 - 2013-01-15 23:17:13 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
I've wanted to do the ghost riding thing ever since I heard about it in a BR, that sounds amazingly fun.


can't eject under aggression anymore

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#89 - 2013-01-15 23:18:27 UTC
FourierTransformer wrote:

The logistical arguments you made were well reasoned and sound. The correlation to power projection of carriers/dreads/supers/titans was not. Nerfing the jump range of combat assets would have a pronounced effect on combat ops.

For more on this, here's ccp:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pLi1J9YrkM&feature=youtu.be&t=23m38s

Who exactly is objecting to reduced range?

Whenever people bring this up, it's attached to a single point.

The small group.
Which is also what the article addressed.

The idea that by nerfing this or that small groups would bet an advantage. They don't though. Anything you do that would make life harder for a large group, makes life harder for a small one. How in the world would it be easier for 100 guys in null?

If you're not larger than your neighbor, you're in threat of losing your space if you choose not to work with them. No nerfs to Jump drives is ever going to change that.

And the very first thing they said at fanfest was,
We can't take away the ability to move around easily. They even said themselves, it has the potential to cause a lot of people to quit.

The ability to take systems quickly and easily was the biggest concern. They don't want one alliance taking over another alliances space in the course of an afternoon; thankfully, that's not happening.

They will not remove titan bridges, they said so themselves.
They might reduce the distance you can move with them in a single jump, sure, but it has nothing to do with giving small groups a hand in null and everything to do with trying to preserve the balance of power.

Small groups are already living and thriving in null, titans do not impede anyones ability to do so.
Jump drives make it possible for them to thrive here as much as large groups.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#90 - 2013-01-15 23:20:48 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Non of them holds significant sov.


Pandemic Legion doesn't generally hold sov either, but to pretend they aren't a powerhouse in nullsec politics is still mighty stupid.

let's see them take a few systems in Omist or Querious first before we consider them ready for discussion alongside the "big boys".


I like how "Taking Sov" is the challenge you put forth to prove a group of people who don't really take sov isn't material to any discussion.

If you want a good idea of what PL is doing, compare pilot numbers in LEM local last month and this, or maybe the fact that Against all Anoms has torn out half their jump bridges, has unfueled towers once set for strategic operations laying all over etc. "Taking Sov" isn't the only measure of the damage that can be done to a nullsec alliance.

I'll grant you that I'm not too happy with PL because they killed my happy hunting ground, but I'm not going to try and steal their thunder because I'm in some crap pub alliance like say "The Unthinkables"
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#91 - 2013-01-15 23:21:36 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Non of them holds significant sov.


Pandemic Legion doesn't generally hold sov either, but to pretend they aren't a powerhouse in nullsec politics is still mighty stupid.

let's see them take a few systems in Omist or Querious first before we consider them ready for discussion alongside the "big boys".


I like how "Taking Sov" is the challenge you put forth to prove a group of people who don't really take sov isn't material to any discussion.

If you want a good idea of what PL is doing, compare pilot numbers in LEM local last month and this, or maybe the fact that Against all Anoms has torn out half their jump bridges, has unfueled towers once set for strategic operations laying all over etc. "Taking Sov" isn't the only measure of the damage that can be done to a nullsec alliance.

I'll grant you that I'm not too happy with PL because they killed my happy hunting ground, but I'm not going to try and steal their thunder because I'm in some crap pub alliance like say "The Unthinkables"

Dude... you need to reset your sarcasm meter.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#92 - 2013-01-15 23:28:01 UTC
what is this i don't even

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2013-01-15 23:28:48 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Sofia Wolf wrote:
Non of them holds significant sov.


Pandemic Legion doesn't generally hold sov either, but to pretend they aren't a powerhouse in nullsec politics is still mighty stupid.

let's see them take a few systems in Omist or Querious first before we consider them ready for discussion alongside the "big boys".


I like how "Taking Sov" is the challenge you put forth to prove a group of people who don't really take sov isn't material to any discussion.

If you want a good idea of what PL is doing, compare pilot numbers in LEM local last month and this, or maybe the fact that Against all Anoms has torn out half their jump bridges, has unfueled towers once set for strategic operations laying all over etc. "Taking Sov" isn't the only measure of the damage that can be done to a nullsec alliance.

I'll grant you that I'm not too happy with PL because they killed my happy hunting ground, but I'm not going to try and steal their thunder because I'm in some crap pub alliance like say "The Unthinkables"

lmfao
Fanatic Row
Neo T.E.C.H.
#94 - 2013-01-15 23:36:19 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
yeah if i was to think of the top two things that RAZOR and Vuk Lau have been historically known to hate above all else, I'd say "lots of blues" and "presence of carebears"
I think that equates as much to 0.0 players enjoying 0.0, as stabbing your eyes out does to enjoying, well, anything.

Piles of blue carebears were certainly not there to be part of 0.0 as such, they were there to do their mindless hi-sec activities, but in a place where the ISK could flow to the "right" people.

I certainly don't hear 0.0 players go; "Man, if we just had more ratting space, 0.0 would be FUN again!".
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#95 - 2013-01-15 23:36:43 UTC
In his defense, e-o gd is absolutely full of clueless people talking about things they know nothing about, so you shouldnt be surprised when sarcasm gets missed.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#96 - 2013-01-15 23:37:13 UTC
I love the constant insistance that you can't be a null entity that harrasses and causes significant damage to null alliance.

And then there's PL.



Perhaps with more doing and less crying **** would happen.
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#97 - 2013-01-15 23:39:31 UTC
Give every ship a jump drive able to jump into an adjoining system with relative randomness and accuracy. Then everyone has to work for their food.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#98 - 2013-01-15 23:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Andski wrote:
SmilingVagrant wrote:
I've wanted to do the ghost riding thing ever since I heard about it in a BR, that sounds amazingly fun.


can't eject under aggression anymore


You eject before aggression. That same invulnerability timer that lets you Cyno-bomb prevents you from getting aggression before you can hit eject.

EDIT
Wait. I'm totally wrong.
(But then so are you.)

You can't eject while under a weapons timer. So as long as you haven't shot or repped anyone in the past 60s, you're free to eject.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-01-15 23:41:14 UTC
Fanatic Row wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
yeah if i was to think of the top two things that RAZOR and Vuk Lau have been historically known to hate above all else, I'd say "lots of blues" and "presence of carebears"
I think that equates as much to 0.0 players enjoying 0.0, as stabbing your eyes out does to enjoying, well, anything.

Piles of blue carebears were certainly not there to be part of 0.0 as such, they were there to do their mindless hi-sec activities, but in a place where the ISK could flow to the "right" people.

I certainly don't hear 0.0 players go; "Man, if we just had more ratting space, 0.0 would be FUN again!".

Excuse me?

If null sec had a better distribution of content within the very systems we live in, more people could have fun actually playing were they live.

And that's only the umpteenth time I've personally said that.
And many others have been saying the exact same thing.

If you're not hearing it, it's because you choose not to. It's been said repeatedly.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#100 - 2013-01-15 23:47:37 UTC
Cynosural fields don't work like that.
The liquid ozone is spend to create a gravity well in space/time that jump drives can lock onto and navigate to regardless of insane distance.
The gravity well doesn't get "spend" when you jump a carrier to it. It simply keeps burning. Just like a fire keeps burning regardless if someone is sitting next to it warming their hands. It doesn't burn less because someone decided they needed to warm themselves up a bit for a second.

Get bent op.