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Pulling the Plug on WiS

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Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#861 - 2013-01-15 13:17:58 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
The draw of 'Avatar Gameplay' to would-be new players is lessened by the fact that it means Eve no longer stands out from the crowd so much. Imagine you're a gamer who's never played an MMO before and you're looking through some gaming website for one to dip your toe in the water with. Row after row of screenshots featuring humanoid avatars with swords or guns or magic wands... and then there's that one with the gigantic spaceships and asteroid belts and laser cannons. Maybe this appeals, maybe it doesn't, but it definitely stands out as something distinct from the rest. Replace that screenshot with one of a humanoid avatar walking around a space station, and the new player just lumps it in with KOTOR and STO only without the recognised IP advantage.

A good part of my scepticism towards the whole WiS project is that is has an uneasy feel of CCP following the crowd rather than innovating. I hope there wasn't some board meeting where senior management said "Everyone else has humanoid avatar characters, we need to follow suit", but I can't be sure. The fact that CCP then tried to lump it in with following the crowd with micro-transaction cash shops (surrounded by some CCPers outright saying that they needed to look at micro-transactions because everyone else was and they needed to go along with it) just reinforces the thought.


Well yes clearly it would fall to the responsibility of the marketing dept to make sure they still get the message through: EVE is a spaceship game WITH avatar gameplay - not the other way around.

And I do share some of your scepticism, based on what CCP has shown us so far. Still, I can't help to feel anxious when I think of the new possibilities that could be opened with Avatar Gameplay - when done properly. A good part of my scepticism is directed to whether or not CCP actually has the skill in-house to make this happen. The dev responses in this thread claim they do have the know-how and only lack the resources. Which leads me to believe the management does not believe in Avatar Gameplay, as I said before.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#862 - 2013-01-15 13:26:40 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:

A good part of my scepticism towards the whole WiS project is that is has an uneasy feel of CCP following the crowd rather than innovating. I hope there wasn't some board meeting where senior management said "Everyone else has humanoid avatar characters, we need to follow suit", but I can't be sure. The fact that CCP then tried to lump it in with following the crowd with micro-transaction cash shops (surrounded by some CCPers outright saying that they needed to look at micro-transactions because everyone else was and they needed to go along with it) just reinforces the thought.


Microtransactions were not related to WiS. First they enforced the idea "no, but in case we do an item mall only for avatar vanity items", none wanted it but they pushed. Then there was some leak of internal CCP documents and became evident as the "only vanity items" stuff was only a trojan horse to introduce microtransaction for faction ammo, [u]ships [/u ]and so on.

And there all the **** exploded. Because:

1. Was evident they were lieing
2. Introducing microtransaction in a game PvP based and players driven economy based like EvE is a ruin.
3. The idea proofed they had lost the traditional understanding and feeling of their playerbase.

But at that time they needed money to keep supporting THREE big projects: Eve, Dust, WoD. And yes, all the so-called expert at that time were used to describe the item mall game model as the only viable option.

They were wrong, and they admited their msitake.

So when the plan faild they had to compensate the costs they had to:

1. reduced employers (were about 20% fired).
2. Halt WoD development
3. Halt any major EvE development (beside some ships stats review and minor mainteinance)
4. Focus all on Dust (that project could not be failed, there was a contract with Sony)

And this is basically still the current situation.

And the damned item mall is still there, a permanent threat.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#863 - 2013-01-15 13:58:05 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
neither anecdotal evidence nor general interest in a debate count as support for one side of that debate


TIL statistical surveys are anecdotal evidence. We need to undo a thousand years of science. Who needs a census? Who needs demographics?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#864 - 2013-01-15 14:23:17 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
TIL statistical surveys are anecdotal evidence. We need to undo a thousand years of science. Who needs a census? Who needs demographics


statistical surveys are not the same as anecdotal evidence, by definition

eve-o gd: drooly debate league of champions

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
silens vesica
Corsair Cartel
#865 - 2013-01-15 15:01:33 UTC
Kinda amazed that this is still on-going.
WiS is a stalled sideline, not terribly important, but there's no real reason to do anything about it - now, or in the imediate future. It's an artefact of financial and development constraints, and should be left as such.

At some future point, when Dust is solid, and WoD has been acted upon - either killed, or developed - WiS will be revisited. Until that time, why all the energy wasted on what is essentially a dead horse?

Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing.

Didn't vote? Then you voted for NulBloc
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#866 - 2013-01-15 16:21:24 UTC
OK, both my wife and daughter who don't play EvE saw the trailer for [nameless other space game], saw the avatar action going there and are on my case to get it for them, ASAP.

I am suspecting there could be a message in there.

I still don't want to see avatar action going in EvE without meaningful content to go with it, but if that can't be worked out within the next year or two there might turn out to be a few more lonely corners of space.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#867 - 2013-01-15 16:51:16 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Kinda amazed that this is still on-going.
WiS is a stalled sideline, not terribly important, but there's no real reason to do anything about it - now, or in the imediate future. It's an artefact of financial and development constraints, and should be left as such.

At some future point, when Dust is solid, and WoD has been acted upon - either killed, or developed - WiS will be revisited. Until that time, why all the energy wasted on what is essentially a dead horse?



So its ok to put resources on a dead game like WOD and of course the console crap game called DUST (Ghazu ,a few post more and you can blame me for repeating sentences ) but not on something for EvE.
As long you guys say this ,you all sound like idiots.
Approving the shoot planet expansion and the almost dead vampire game opposed to some kind of real expansion to Eve is beyond me .

You like Wis or you don,t,i don,t care

But don,t talk about taking resources away from FIS,while WOD and DUST is still in development .

R.S.I2014
Ghazu
#868 - 2013-01-15 17:03:16 UTC
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
silens vesica wrote:
Kinda amazed that this is still on-going.
WiS is a stalled sideline, not terribly important, but there's no real reason to do anything about it - now, or in the imediate future. It's an artefact of financial and development constraints, and should be left as such.

At some future point, when Dust is solid, and WoD has been acted upon - either killed, or developed - WiS will be revisited. Until that time, why all the energy wasted on what is essentially a dead horse?



So its ok to put resources on a dead game like WOD and of course the console crap game called DUST (Ghazu ,a few post more and you can blame me for repeating sentences ) but not on something for EvE.
As long you guys say this ,you all sound like idiots.
Approving the shoot planet expansion and the almost dead vampire game opposed to some kind of real expansion to Eve is beyond me .

You like Wis or you don,t,i don,t care

But don,t talk about taking resources away from FIS,while WOD and DUST is still in development .


lol we are beginning to sound similar, it's just that you are crapping on fps whereas I am crapping on a bunch of dudes emoting each other.
btw, the fps genre is dominating sales in the gaming industry, while wod has decades of tabletop gaming lore and content to back it up, the difficulty is in translating those elements into feasible pc gameplay. and wis is what? some unseemly 2nd life freakshow, useless.

Until I see a devblog with tangible wis gameplay it's essentially useless.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#869 - 2013-01-15 17:06:39 UTC
Thomas Gore wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:
The draw of 'Avatar Gameplay' to would-be new players is lessened by the fact that it means Eve no longer stands out from the crowd so much. Imagine you're a gamer who's never played an MMO before and you're looking through some gaming website for one to dip your toe in the water with. Row after row of screenshots featuring humanoid avatars with swords or guns or magic wands... and then there's that one with the gigantic spaceships and asteroid belts and laser cannons. Maybe this appeals, maybe it doesn't, but it definitely stands out as something distinct from the rest. Replace that screenshot with one of a humanoid avatar walking around a space station, and the new player just lumps it in with KOTOR and STO only without the recognised IP advantage.

A good part of my scepticism towards the whole WiS project is that is has an uneasy feel of CCP following the crowd rather than innovating. I hope there wasn't some board meeting where senior management said "Everyone else has humanoid avatar characters, we need to follow suit", but I can't be sure. The fact that CCP then tried to lump it in with following the crowd with micro-transaction cash shops (surrounded by some CCPers outright saying that they needed to look at micro-transactions because everyone else was and they needed to go along with it) just reinforces the thought.


Well yes clearly it would fall to the responsibility of the marketing dept to make sure they still get the message through: EVE is a spaceship game WITH avatar gameplay - not the other way around.

And I do share some of your scepticism, based on what CCP has shown us so far. Still, I can't help to feel anxious when I think of the new possibilities that could be opened with Avatar Gameplay - when done properly. A good part of my scepticism is directed to whether or not CCP actually has the skill in-house to make this happen. The dev responses in this thread claim they do have the know-how and only lack the resources. Which leads me to believe the management does not believe in Avatar Gameplay, as I said before.

The plan for EVE has ALWAYS been that of a game that is NOT just about FiS.

EVE was envisioned and intended to be a sci-fi simulator that would eventually progress beyond just flying. There's no reason to them to maintain that EVE is about FiS "with" avatar gameplay, because from the beginning they wanted to make a game that was BOTH FiS and WiS.

CCP's vision of EVE is much, much bigger than just FiS.


People have become entrenched in this idea that EVE as it is is all that CCP ever intended, and that WiS was just an after thought. Except that CCP started on ambulation almost immediately after EVE released. (Obviously not "immediately" as they were pretty preoccupied with making the game they released actually work properly for a while.)

FiS the foundation that the rest of the game was supposed to grow from, not be the entire point of EVE.

They were already well underway with the development of ambulation prior to '06. It's not a new idea, it's an original one that was always intended to expand on the EVE universe.


Ghazu
#870 - 2013-01-15 17:09:18 UTC
Like lol people are surprised that a bunch of dudes emoting each other in pretend bars is dumped in favor of pursuing unprecedented cross platform and genre gameplay, with real gameplay ie people shooting each other but with tangible effects on a persistent world.

Or wod, a game attempting to represent tabletop gaming on the pc, instead of the usual yet another dogshit mmorpg of the month.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
Ghazu
#871 - 2013-01-15 17:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ghazu
jesus christ you sound like a rabid Issler fan, sci simulator I agree on that point. The keyword you are forgetting is Content/Gameplay. Emoting is not, bars and minigames and selling some goddamn boosters when I can alt-r for the market is not.

If the above is all wis is to you people then lol wis is not worth its electricity to run.

CCP is not my five year old daughter, where she may draw little pictures and take little baby steps and I'll be right there cheering her on.
F. the baby steps. The whole things needs to be standing on its own merits flawed or not.
I'll tell you what's delaying wis, it's the concepts, sure the csm saw something they liked. But to put it live? I don't think so, it has to be un-goonable, rules and engagement, mechanics, all them big conceptual stuff. The stuff you myopic emote lovers are clamoring for, they are easy nobrainer features. They can be done in five minutes.
There shall be no emoting first gameplay later. These things need to be said, by somebody since CCP is all don't ask don't tell about wis.

http://www.minerbumping.com/ lol what the christ https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2299984#post2299984
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#872 - 2013-01-15 17:26:44 UTC
Ghazu wrote:


lol we are beginning to sound similar, it's just that you are crapping on fps whereas I am crapping on a bunch of dudes emoting each other.
btw, the fps genre is dominating sales in the gaming industry, while wod has decades of tabletop gaming lore and content to back it up, the difficulty is in translating those elements into feasible pc gameplay. and wis is what? some unseemly 2nd life freakshow, useless.

Until I see a devblog with tangible wis gameplay it's essentially useless.



My intend is not crapping at an FPS game,actually i loved to play COD.
Until the moment the young ones turned out to be a lot quicker then me ,i had a lot of fun in a few COD clans.
I even paid for a few dedicated servers to play on ,until EvE came along

CCP stated to bring two platforms together .
I don,t own a PS3 ,so i don,t know what the console kids experience is ,but the only thing i see on the EvE side is shooting at a planet getting some logs not even killmails and nothing else.
To have to benefit from DUST ,you have to own a pc and the old ps3 and willing to play on both.


I know ,you don,t like WIS ,but at least with WIS ,all of the EvE community benefits or could benefit from WIS in some sort.
And at least WIS is made for the EvE players

With DUST only the ones willing to play a console game does.
With WOD only the ones who likes the genre benefit from this .

therefore i can,t understand ,why people are so concerned about a few people developing WIS,but don,t argue the fact that the so called integration of DUST must take the brunt of all Dev resources at the moment.



R.S.I2014
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#873 - 2013-01-15 17:28:29 UTC
Confirming WiS IS inevitable as long as Eve is a viable game. Now, whether that's one year or five, I have no idea. However, WiS has always been part of the vision for Eve, and likely always will be.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#874 - 2013-01-15 17:40:46 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
Confirming WiS IS inevitable as long as Eve is a viable game. Now, whether that's one year or five, I have no idea. However, WiS has always been part of the vision for Eve, and likely always will be.



If that was the case,Team Avatar would still exist.
Sorry to say to you ,but it seems that CCP adjusted their view of this great vision ,they had.

R.S.I2014
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#875 - 2013-01-15 17:43:06 UTC
I think using the term "shelved" makes it clear there is an intention to return to it, but no specified time line as of yet.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
oldbutfeelingyoung
Perkone
Caldari State
#876 - 2013-01-15 17:51:42 UTC
Varius Xeral wrote:
I think using the term "shelved" makes it clear there is an intention to return to it, but no specified time line as of yet.



WIS was shelved ,when the so called summer rage came to life.
If WIS was in the picture ,then that cell we live in would be expanded.
I am not talking about the door here,but adding some function to the avatar in hiss cell
for example ,remember the tattoos and what about the useless screens?

I know i am pessimistic again about WIS, but disbanding Team Whatever and going silent until Drunkfast made it clear.

R.S.I2014
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#877 - 2013-01-15 17:55:02 UTC
oldbutfeelingyoung wrote:
If WIS was in the picture ,then that cell we live in would be expanded.


Hey, I can just pull make-believe arguments from my butte and then deny them too.

Shelved means shelved.

Now, if you think they're lying to string people along, that would be a valid argument.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
The F Word
Doomheim
#878 - 2013-01-15 17:56:06 UTC
WiS, avatars, and the requisite gameplay have been the carrot dangled in front of the capsuleer for too long.

One of two things is going to happen, you will either start enjoying a purely FiS EVE, or you will quit.

How long it takes an individual to reach either conclusion is really the only variable here.

Once upon a time, EVE was to be something much more than it is now. But things don't always work out the way you want them to, and with EVE becoming the pillar for DUST you can bet on smaller iteration over larger projects. To that end, I wouldn't look for anything beyond tiercide (CCPspeak for routine nerfs and buffs) for the next few years.
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#879 - 2013-01-15 17:58:01 UTC
If there is going to be anything this year about WIS it will likely come up at fanfest. If there's nothing at fanfest, not going to be anything this year. Until then, I strongly doubt we will hear anything at all about WIS.
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#880 - 2013-01-15 18:01:39 UTC
Agreed, I wouldn't sit around in a game I otherwise don't enjoy holding my breath for WiS.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal