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Skill reallocation Option needs to finally be added and why
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Mag's
Azn Empire
#241 - 2013-01-15 10:17:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

I'll wait.


Oh that's easy, The plex itself. :) Because they only are in game if people pay cash for them. And their ISK value once sold, because thats 580 Million ISK you would not have gotten within the 2 minuets it took you to sell the Plex.

Sure you might have assets you can sell fro the same amount, But when you Buy a Plex with Cash it "Creates" a new Item in game that was not previously there, and its Value is 580 Million ISK, therfore you create a 580 Million ISK deficit in game, of which Goes into your pocket once the plex is bought off the market. When the plex is Used it disappears thus leaving you with a 580 Million ISK which you did not Earn, But purchased with Cash through RMT services.
A Plex is designed to give playtime. It's actually more expensive, then paying for subs. But gametime is all it gives and you can get this by normal means.
You also seem to forget what you yourself, have already said about the Plex.
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I would agree with you that Plex was not a pay to win item:
So I'll ask again.

Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#242 - 2013-01-15 10:18:45 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

I'll wait.


Oh that's easy, The plex itself. :) Because they only are in game if people pay cash for them. And their ISK value once sold, because thats 580 Million ISK you would not have gotten within the 2 minuets it took you to sell the Plex.

Sure you might have assets you can sell fro the same amount, But when you Buy a Plex with Cash it "Creates" a new Item in game that was not previously there, and its Value is 580 Million ISK, therfore you create a 580 Million ISK deficit in game, of which Goes into your pocket once the plex is bought off the market. When the plex is Used it disappears thus leaving you with a 580 Million ISK which you did not Earn, But purchased with Cash through RMT services.
A Plex is designed to give playtime. It's actually more expensive, then paying for subs. But gametime is all it gives and you can get this by normal means.
You also seem to forget what you yourself, have already said about the Plex itself.
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I would agree with you that Plex was not a pay to win item:
So I'll ask again.

Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

I'll aslo throw out that you CAN get a plex via normal game play.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#243 - 2013-01-15 10:18:49 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I tell you what.

We will both go in game, we will both start with 0 ISK and 0 Assets.



* The goal will be to make enough money to buy a Jump Freighter (Around 6 Billion ISK).



- I'll buy 6 billion ISK worth of Plex and sell them and buy the freighter within 20 minuets.


- How long will it take you to save up that much isk from 0, without buying a plex?



Pay to win.

How are you going to fly the freighter? You don't have the skill.


yes I do actually. But the goal said nothing about "flying" it. Simply to buy it.

But you started with 0 isk. How can you start with 0 isk if you aren't a new character?


You just transfer all your isk and assets to an alt.

However:

Even if we started with new characters, the Goal said nothing about being able to Fly it. Only that you needed to buy it.

And since me buying plexes allows me to Immediately complete the goal, I have effectively Paid CCP to win the contest.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#244 - 2013-01-15 10:20:12 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:

The discussion is about whether or not a person can pay money to instantly gain a significant advantage in Eve.

And the answer is yes, they can.

Step 1) Drop $1000 on PLEX
Step 2) Buy an insanely good character and a fully fitted supercarrier or some ****, in less than a day.
Step 3) Go kick somebody's ass that you were unable to kick previous to step 1 (assuming you have a basic understanding of the game)

$$$$ led directly to ass kicking
Thus, "pay to win"


What really happens, as some people are indeed stupid enough to believe in the above:

Step 1) Drop $1000 on PLEX
Step 2) Buy a supercap pilot, wait one day
Step 3) Realize you are only left with 2bil ISK
Step 4) Drop $1000 on PLEX
Step 5) Buy a supercarrier after days of hoops and mails with 3rd party
Step 6) Get podded in the supercap in the same system you bought it in

What else happened? 100 characters play for free for a month, and many guys got on a free supercap killmail.

Who won, and who paid for their fun?


.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#245 - 2013-01-15 10:21:25 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
I'll also throw out that you CAN get a plex via normal game play.
Indeed, you can buy a plex with ISK, but this will simply confuse him more. I'd rather he just try and show an in game item first. Big smile

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#246 - 2013-01-15 10:22:55 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I tell you what.

We will both go in game, we will both start with 0 ISK and 0 Assets.



* The goal will be to make enough money to buy a Jump Freighter (Around 6 Billion ISK).



- I'll buy 6 billion ISK worth of Plex and sell them and buy the freighter within 20 minuets.


- How long will it take you to save up that much isk from 0, without buying a plex?



Pay to win.

How are you going to fly the freighter? You don't have the skill.


yes I do actually. But the goal said nothing about "flying" it. Simply to buy it.

But you started with 0 isk. How can you start with 0 isk if you aren't a new character?


You just transfer all your isk and assets to an alt.

However:

Even if we started with new characters, the Goal said nothing about being able to Fly it. Only that you needed to buy it.

And since me buying plexes allows me to Immediately complete the goal, I have effectively Paid CCP to win the contest.



Horray for you? You own a jump freighter that you can't use. You have no advantage of any kind over me. Because YOU CAN'T USE IT. So I guess if you define "winning' as owning a pile of totaly worthless stuff. Then yes plex is pay to win. Other than that. It confers no advantage whatsoever to the person owning it that cannot be gained by just playing the game.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#247 - 2013-01-15 10:23:17 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

I'll wait.


Oh that's easy, The plex itself. :) Because they only are in game if people pay cash for them. And their ISK value once sold, because thats 580 Million ISK you would not have gotten within the 2 minuets it took you to sell the Plex.

Sure you might have assets you can sell fro the same amount, But when you Buy a Plex with Cash it "Creates" a new Item in game that was not previously there, and its Value is 580 Million ISK, therfore you create a 580 Million ISK deficit in game, of which Goes into your pocket once the plex is bought off the market. When the plex is Used it disappears thus leaving you with a 580 Million ISK which you did not Earn, But purchased with Cash through RMT services.
A Plex is designed to give playtime. It's actually more expensive, then paying for subs. But gametime is all it gives and you can get this by normal means.
You also seem to forget what you yourself, have already said about the Plex itself.
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I would agree with you that Plex was not a pay to win item:
So I'll ask again.

Point me to ANY item in game a Plex can get you, that you cannot get by normal game play.

I'll aslo throw out that you CAN get a plex via normal game play.


Not unless:

A: You have the ISk to buy one, which if you start with 0 ISK and no assets, you don't. And what would you do with one you baught off the market? resale it for the same amount of ISK you bought it for? Hold on to it for months hoping the price goes up so you can sell it for a profit?

B. A player gives you one, or you scam one off of someone. (Which would be hard to do if you ahve 0 ISK and 0 Assets, but not impossible it would however take time.)

C. You gank someone hauling it. (Which would be hard to do if you ahve 0 ISK and 0 Assets)

However:

Neither of those are possible unless first:

** A player pays CCP cash to put one in game so you can buy it with ISK. Or scam it off someone.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#248 - 2013-01-15 10:24:35 UTC

Quote:

Horray for you? You own a jump freighter that you can't use. You have no advantage of any kind over me. Because YOU CAN'T USE IT. So I guess if you define "winning' as owning a pile of totaly worthless stuff. Then yes plex is pay to win. Other than that. It confers no advantage whatsoever to the person owning it that cannot be gained by just playing the game.


it doesn't matter if I can use it. I accomplished the goal so I win, so it is Pay 2 win.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#249 - 2013-01-15 10:24:39 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
I'll also throw out that you CAN get a plex via normal game play.
Indeed, you can buy a plex with ISK, but this will simply confuse him more. I'd rather he just try and show an in game item first. Big smile

I was thinking more along the lines of shooting a kestrel with 70 of them in the cargo.

PLEX has to be the worst p2w system ever if 70 of them can't stop a ship from exploding.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#250 - 2013-01-15 10:25:51 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

Quote:

Horray for you? You own a jump freighter that you can't use. You have no advantage of any kind over me. Because YOU CAN'T USE IT. So I guess if you define "winning' as owning a pile of totaly worthless stuff. Then yes plex is pay to win. Other than that. It confers no advantage whatsoever to the person owning it that cannot be gained by just playing the game.


it doesn't matter if I can use it. I accomplished the goal so I win, so it is Pay 2 win.

It's pay to win a game only you are playing though. The rest of us aren't playing "race to buy a jumpfreighter and then stare at it's icon for the next 2 months"
Mag's
Azn Empire
#251 - 2013-01-15 10:27:10 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
I'll also throw out that you CAN get a plex via normal game play.
Indeed, you can buy a plex with ISK, but this will simply confuse him more. I'd rather he just try and show an in game item first. Big smile

I was thinking more along the lines of shooting a kestrel with 70 of them in the cargo.

PLEX has to be the worst p2w system ever if 70 of them can't stop a ship from exploding.
Yea that was funny, Jita is great for lolz.

I'm still waiting. He seems to be avoiding it now.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#252 - 2013-01-15 10:27:25 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
I'll also throw out that you CAN get a plex via normal game play.
Indeed, you can buy a plex with ISK, but this will simply confuse him more. I'd rather he just try and show an in game item first. Big smile


Alright, let me ask you something then.

There's a Plex rush and someone buys every single Plex on the market.

Players decide not to buy any more plexes from CCP for Cash (for whatever reason).

Plexes can no longer be purchased from the market for ISK.


You see what you do not seem to understand is that Unless a Player Pays CCP real money to put a plex in game, there is NO possible way to buy a plex for ISK.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#253 - 2013-01-15 10:28:46 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


Quote:
Yes, somebody paid CCP real world money so that the PLEX was created as ingame item,


1. If that had not happened the plex would not be available in game, PERIOD. End of story.


Now you are just being thick, mate. This item, the PLEX, does not create any advantage ingame. It is game time.

Quote:
2. I do not define winning as having ISK, everyone defines winning as something Individual, which is the point. A plex which is worth ISK allows you to accomplish your goals quicker and far easier then an individual who could not purchase them.

Which IS the point.



Ok, now you start to understand. ISK is not winning. PLEX only gives ISK to one players, free game time to another player. End of discussion.


Now back to your topic, could you already provide us any kind of proof of actual skills that become useless in BC rebalance?


.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#254 - 2013-01-15 10:29:26 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
I'll also throw out that you CAN get a plex via normal game play.
Indeed, you can buy a plex with ISK, but this will simply confuse him more. I'd rather he just try and show an in game item first. Big smile


Alright, let me ask you something then.

There's a Plex rush and someone buys every single Plex on the market.

Players decide not to buy any more plexes from CCP for Cash (for whatever reason).

Plexes can no longer be purchased from the market for ISK.


You see what you do not seem to understand is that Unless a Player Pays CCP real money to put a plex in game, there is NO possible way to buy a plex for ISK.

Creating impossible scenarios doesn't prove your point
Mag's
Azn Empire
#255 - 2013-01-15 10:30:18 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
I'll also throw out that you CAN get a plex via normal game play.
Indeed, you can buy a plex with ISK, but this will simply confuse him more. I'd rather he just try and show an in game item first. Big smile


Alright, let me ask you something then.

There's a Plex rush and someone buys every single Plex on the market.

Players decide not to buy any more plexes from CCP for Cash (for whatever reason).

Plexes can no longer be purchased from the market for ISK.


You see what you do not seem to understand is that Unless a Player Pays CCP real money to put a plex in game, there is NO possible way to buy a plex for ISK.
Then I'll simply buy GTCs for ISK.

My post at the top of this page is left unanswered.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#256 - 2013-01-15 10:30:53 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
I'll also throw out that you CAN get a plex via normal game play.
Indeed, you can buy a plex with ISK, but this will simply confuse him more. I'd rather he just try and show an in game item first. Big smile


Alright, let me ask you something then.

There's a Plex rush and someone buys every single Plex on the market.

Players decide not to buy any more plexes from CCP for Cash (for whatever reason).

Plexes can no longer be purchased from the market for ISK.


You see what you do not seem to understand is that Unless a Player Pays CCP real money to put a plex in game, there is NO possible way to buy a plex for ISK.



Ok let's make another mind game form actual reality- what happens when CCP's PLEX website is down?

Right, you can only buy PLEX with ingame currency :)

.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#257 - 2013-01-15 10:50:42 UTC
Roime wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


Quote:
Yes, somebody paid CCP real world money so that the PLEX was created as ingame item,


1. If that had not happened the plex would not be available in game, PERIOD. End of story.


Now you are just being thick, mate. This item, the PLEX, does not create any advantage ingame. It is game time.

Quote:
2. I do not define winning as having ISK, everyone defines winning as something Individual, which is the point. A plex which is worth ISK allows you to accomplish your goals quicker and far easier then an individual who could not purchase them.

Which IS the point.



Ok, now you start to understand. ISK is not winning. PLEX only gives ISK to one players, free game time to another player. End of discussion.


Now back to your topic, could you already provide us any kind of proof of actual skills that become useless in BC rebalance?




We already know Isk is not wining, completing your goals are, and mate, were not the ones who are thick, you all are, you keep repeating your same points and questions over and over and over again after they've been answered 10x in previous posts.

Reread this thread this is the 5th time you all have brought up these points. And the 5th time they have been explained in graphic detail.

The concept is very simple:

1. You buy plex with cash, with the intent of selling it for ISK so you do not have to grind for days and weeks to get it like everyone else who can not afford to buy a Plex with real money.

2. You then use the ISK you get from selling said Plex in order to fit your character with whatever it is you need in order to complete your goal whatever it was.

3. A player who does not have the financial RL assets you do, and can not afford to Buy a plex will still have to take weeks in order to get where you are currently, and you are only there currently because YOU bought a plex.

---

Let me put it a different way.

A. You a new player, You decide you want to fly Battleships, so you train for a few months in order to perfect your skills, but then realize you can't afford one.

B. You have several choices - You can Mine, You can Mission, You can PvP, You can Scam
B1. If you have money, you have another Option - Buy a Plex and Sell it for the ISK you need.
B2. Not everyone has the Option listed in B1 due to RL financial difficulties.

If you Choose B your like Every other player in the game.

If you Choose B1 you are one of the Lucky people who can gain instant ISK with the click of a few buttons.

If you do not qualify as the Person who has the Option of B1, then You are at a disadvantage to the Person who Is B1. because YOU unlike them are NOT ABLE to afford to buy a Plex and sell it for ISK,



And before you go "But you can buy a plex with ISK".

Why the hell would you buy a plex with ISK when your Goal is to Make ISK so you can Buy a battleship? And 2ndly if you do not have enough ISK to buy a BS, then you do not have enough ISK to buy a Plex.

Period.


This is a very simple concept.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#258 - 2013-01-15 10:52:31 UTC
Roime wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
I'll also throw out that you CAN get a plex via normal game play.
Indeed, you can buy a plex with ISK, but this will simply confuse him more. I'd rather he just try and show an in game item first. Big smile


Alright, let me ask you something then.

There's a Plex rush and someone buys every single Plex on the market.

Players decide not to buy any more plexes from CCP for Cash (for whatever reason).

Plexes can no longer be purchased from the market for ISK.


You see what you do not seem to understand is that Unless a Player Pays CCP real money to put a plex in game, there is NO possible way to buy a plex for ISK.



Ok let's make another mind game form actual reality- what happens when CCP's PLEX website is down?

Right, you can only buy PLEX with ingame currency :)




Not if there are no plex on the In game market. NPC corps do not make Plex. CCP does not seed the Market with Plex. The only Plex on the Market are Plex which PLayers have purchased with RL money.

And as I said before if you Goal is to MAKE ISK, then you are not going to "Spend it" Buying Plex, Your Going to spend RL money so you Can sell Plex and make MORE isk.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#259 - 2013-01-15 11:02:24 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Roime wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


Quote:
Yes, somebody paid CCP real world money so that the PLEX was created as ingame item,


1. If that had not happened the plex would not be available in game, PERIOD. End of story.


Now you are just being thick, mate. This item, the PLEX, does not create any advantage ingame. It is game time.

Quote:
2. I do not define winning as having ISK, everyone defines winning as something Individual, which is the point. A plex which is worth ISK allows you to accomplish your goals quicker and far easier then an individual who could not purchase them.

Which IS the point.



Ok, now you start to understand. ISK is not winning. PLEX only gives ISK to one players, free game time to another player. End of discussion.


Now back to your topic, could you already provide us any kind of proof of actual skills that become useless in BC rebalance?




We already know Isk is not wining, completing your goals are, and mate, were not the ones who are thick, you all are, you keep repeating your same points and questions over and over and over again after they've been answered 10x in previous posts.

Reread this thread this is the 5th time you all have brought up these points. And the 5th time they have been explained in graphic detail.

The concept is very simple:

1. You buy plex with cash, with the intent of selling it for ISK so you do not have to grind for days and weeks to get it like everyone else who can not afford to buy a Plex with real money.

2. You then use the ISK you get from selling said Plex in order to fit your character with whatever it is you need in order to complete your goal whatever it was.

3. A player who does not have the financial RL assets you do, and can not afford to Buy a plex will still have to take weeks in order to get where you are currently, and you are only there currently because YOU bought a plex.

---

Let me put it a different way.

A. You a new player, You decide you want to fly Battleships, so you train for a few months in order to perfect your skills, but then realize you can't afford one.

B. You have several choices - You can Mine, You can Mission, You can PvP, You can Scam
B1. If you have money, you have another Option - Buy a Plex and Sell it for the ISK you need.
B2. Not everyone has the Option listed in B1 due to RL financial difficulties.

If you Choose B your like Every other player in the game.

If you Choose B1 you are one of the Lucky people who can gain instant ISK with the click of a few buttons.

If you do not qualify as the Person who has the Option of B1, then You are at a disadvantage to the Person who Is B1. because YOU unlike them are NOT ABLE to afford to buy a Plex and sell it for ISK,



And before you go "But you can buy a plex with ISK".

Why the hell would you buy a plex with ISK when your Goal is to Make ISK so you can Buy a battleship? And 2ndly if you do not have enough ISK to buy a BS, then you do not have enough ISK to buy a Plex.

Period.


This is a very simple concept.
Gaining things faster is NOT the same as getting something no one else can. Yes you can get easy isk with plex but there are enough financial opportunities in EVE that you can fund your career without needing them.


All this is pointless however as it still doesn't address why your idea doesn't break the game. (namely seriously disadvantaging newbies by me being able to respec into more things than they can)
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#260 - 2013-01-15 11:12:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Repeating this question for third time before my final post on pay to win-offtopic:

Quote:
Now back to your topic, could you already provide us any kind of proof of actual skills that become useless in BC rebalance?


In my example there was PLEX on the market. You know, something has happened many times according to CCP announcements, payment processing temporarily disabled. Your situation is purely hypotethical.

In the end, this all seems to come down to your perception of "fairness" and what results in "winning in EVE", which by definition is impossible in a sandbox.

1) realize that the people who are able to buy PLEX ingame have something more than the ones who buy them from CCP
2) realize that having more time is just as unfair as having more RL money
3) realize that a very large portion of EVE players have enough ISK to play the game for free, often supporting several accounts

Sure, if your goal in EVE is to have lots of ISK, you can sell RL-bought PLEXes in game. You support game development and allow others to play for free.

But those who have more time to spend, always have an advantage over you. Because EVE is play to win game. You achieve things with planning, experience and development over time. The things that define success in EVE, control over markets, domination of territories, victory over your opponents, established player organisations with microculture, e-fame and reputation are not achievable by buying PLEX.

Even less things that make people feel happy on a higher level- sense of achievement from seeing your plans and dedicated effort bare fruit, satisfaction from reaching your character training goals, reaching some standings, asset value or 500th killmail.

ISK can buy you a character that someone else trained and nurtured. ISK can buy ships and gear that someone else made. RL money can buy you ISK that someone else made.

That's not winning.

.