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Farmers and FW: throwing them off the castle wall

Author
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#41 - 2013-01-14 21:28:49 UTC
The straight up notification system is a dead duck for the reason Merdaneth explained, a better option would be a an additional column (or a hover text) in the militia interface giving you the net change VP/plexes the last 15/30 or 30/60 minutes .. if second is close to 2x the first then system is being actively plexed.

Still does not address the issue of plexes being run by toothless frigs though as they will and do just what Merdaneth said, run ad nauseum. Very few (if any) people have the patience to try to kill something that requires extraordinary measure to even catch for next to nothing.

We could demand that CCP spend all the alt cash they make on FW to have a permanent team assigned to improving FW .. in that case I'd be more than happy to look the other way while farm alts dictate what I can do (ISK) and where I can go (docking) Smile
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#42 - 2013-01-14 21:31:26 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
"We could demand"
Who is "we"? All the forum whores who never log in and/or are not part of FW?
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#43 - 2013-01-14 21:40:13 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
Merdaneth wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:


It would completely change the game. The smart militias would not all group together in one or 2 ssytems. They would break the fw front into about 7 different zones and plex/cover them. If were in kamela and saw someone was plexing sosala you could go fight them. But you wouldn't go 10 jumps out to chase someone. Smart Militias would communicate asking who is covering each of the plexes that is under attack and group/position their pilots to most effectively defend their space and attack the enemies space.

Also each person who plexed would not keep trying to plex thinking they could get away with the current hide and plex tactics. There would be no more hiding and they would know it. They would know that they will almost certainly be attacked and so would not try to take plexes unless they were ready to fight.

This would completely change the game into a fast paced chaotic pvp war.


If you make claims you have to support it either with argument or evidence. I see neither. Just opinion isn't doing it.

Smart militias can already do what you suggest, spread out and cover different areas. You are suggesting they don't spread out because they are missing automated intel? .



Yes I am. If people see that a group is constantly plexing up in an area then eventually some pilots will go up there - or they will lose the system. But if you don't know if anyone is plexing 10 jumps away you wont go wandering there just to check.

Seriously think about this idea and my responses. Think especially about my response below.

Merdaneth wrote:

Have you ever tried to chase of plexers that don't want to do PvP? They simple move on to the next system if you chase them. And the next. And the next. Generating a whole load of messages of 'plex under attack'. In fact, with the implementation needing a mandatory delay of 1-5 minutes of relaying warzone information, the board would mostly red all the time, and the actual informational content would be low. It also misses another important part of intel, enemy numbers and fleet composition. Bad idea all around.

Most people that don't want to fight plex in plain sight. They simply warp out only if you try and enter their plex. The fact that you know it, or other people know they're in the plex they don't care about it as much as you think.


Under the new system there would be no chasing. You wouldn't need to chase them to see if they dock up or plex. Why? Because you don't care what they do unless they enter into a plex, and if they do that, your whole militia will be immediately notified.

Consider this: lets say I am in Todifrauan plexing and I see an enemy (lets call him "rabbit") is plexing in brin. I may go chase him out of the plex. If CCP does the countbacks right I will not lose any time on my plex because no enemy was on grid with me or my accell gate when I warped out of the plex. But if I land on grid with the rabbit or its accel gate before he warps, he will immediately lose 3 minutes of time he spent plexing. (I will gain that time)

Now lets say I sit in his plex and keep running it. He wasted 3 minutes by warping out and is continuing to waste time running to a new system. Now lets say he shows up again in another system a bit further out. If he is far from me, I would ask people in my militia comms if anyone is close to go chase him out. People in my militia could then confirm they will chase him out again. Again he will lose the 3 minutes for warping out and waste more time trying to find a "safe" place to plex. Meanwhile my militia will just keep running timers and fighting people who come into the plexes we are capping. The rabbit will be getting nowhere while our militia will keep capping plexes.


Really just think about it. It will work and make faction war great. CCP just needs to do it.



I would add that What information the notice gave would be subject to debate. Personally I would like to know at least the name of the pilot and the type of plex that was entered or left.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#44 - 2013-01-14 21:42:55 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
"We could demand"
Who is "we"? All the forum whores who never log in and/or are not part of FW?



I thought the relevant population was all the people who use their alts to farm faction war. Their interests are your main concern right?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#45 - 2013-01-14 21:46:58 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
I thought the relevant population was all the people who use their alts to farm faction war. Their interests are your main concern right?
No, not really. At least they log in and play the game which is more than I can say for the forum whores that seem to infest every thread concerning FW.
Dzajic
#46 - 2013-01-15 02:22:39 UTC
Having plex timer reset if hostiles are alone inside would be insane boost to defense and for blobs. Just have one large fleet, you only have to visit each site in constellation once in 15-20 minutes , kill the person or small gang inside and then just move on, site is cleared as far as you are concerned. You could just patrol with a blob and prevent any offensive plexing whatsoever.
Taoist Dragon
SHAVED
#47 - 2013-01-15 05:05:07 UTC
Have the timer 'count down' at the standard rate as if you were running the site back to neutral. But if you are active in the site it counts to neutral 2x as fast. Once neutral it counts 'up' (i.e. you are running the site to d-plex the system.) at normal rates.

This means if you just chase off the plexer it counts down as if you are there. But if you actualy spend the time to defend it then it runs down faster but Defensive plexing takes the same time as normal.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#48 - 2013-01-15 17:11:42 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
I thought the relevant population was all the people who use their alts to farm faction war. Their interests are your main concern right?
No, not really. At least they log in and play the game which is more than I can say for the forum whores that seem to infest every thread concerning FW.



I played it for hours and hours and hours. It still sucks. You still win by hiding alts in back systems and farming plexes. Do you deny this?

Sorry but that does not sound fun to most people. The game has no merit. That is why it is really just you and about 4 others that really care about who is winning faction war. The others are just fariming plexes, or using plexes as a way to get some random pvp.

I played it and it is still broken.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Villore Accords
#49 - 2013-01-15 17:24:35 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
or using plexes as a way to get some random pvp.


Why is this a bad thing?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#50 - 2013-01-15 17:48:09 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
I played it and it is still broken.
You've been complaining for 3+ years and it still isn't up to your standards. Maybe it's time for you to move on to some other game?
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#51 - 2013-01-15 18:07:53 UTC
chatgris wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
or using plexes as a way to get some random pvp.


Why is this a bad thing?



I am not saying its necessarilly bad. It is what I did in fw before and after inferno. I used to be happy collecting the killmails even though fw was broken.

But now I want the game fixed. I want to fight for occupancy as best as I can. And I want the way to do that to be something other than putting alts in back systems and running from any pvper that might arrive. As long as that is the best way to win the war the game is broken imo.

Also going in plexes to get fights does seem backward doesn't it? The game should be that we fight in order to capture plexes not we go in plexes to get fights. Woudln't you agree?

Currently it is essentially like RvB. Fights with no real context as to *why* you are fighting. The fighting for no underlying purpose is too contrived.

Perhaps it breaks the immersion for me. I don't know, the few fights I get per 2 hour session just isn't cutting it anymore.

Make faction war involve more fights and give the fights some meaning. Then it will have merit.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#52 - 2013-01-15 18:14:40 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
I played it and it is still broken.
You've been complaining for 3+ years and it still isn't up to your standards. Maybe it's time for you to move on to some other game?


They really did nothing to fix what was broken. They just threw isk at the same broken mechanic.

Maybe you should hide your alts in backwater systems and win the war for gallente if you like the game so much. Go enjoy it.

But your constant whining that other people don't share your love of the current mechanic, isn't really adding to the discussion.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#53 - 2013-01-15 18:16:38 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
I played it and it is still broken.
You've been complaining for 3+ years and it still isn't up to your standards. Maybe it's time for you to move on to some other game?
They really did nothing to fix what was broken. They just threw isk at the same broken mechanic.
I know. So please quit posting in protest.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#54 - 2013-01-15 19:05:45 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
I played it and it is still broken.
You've been complaining for 3+ years and it still isn't up to your standards. Maybe it's time for you to move on to some other game?
They really did nothing to fix what was broken. They just threw isk at the same broken mechanic.
I know. So please quit posting in protest.


Because you know the game is still broken, I should stop posting about it? Ugh Another non sequitur from XG.

Really enough posting about people posting. If you want to address some of the points raised about the actual game mechanics then do that.

But like I said above (and you cut out of my quote) you aren't adding anything to the discussion when you just keep moaning that everyone doesn't share your love for the current game mechanics.

Try to post about the game mechanics we are discussing instead of posting your feelings about the people posting, and your input might actually have some value.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#55 - 2013-01-15 19:20:34 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
Because you know the game is still broken, I should stop posting about it? Ugh Another non sequitur from XG.
You don't play the game, and the vast majority of people who do play the game know that it is mostly working ok.

Since you think the game is broken, and since you don't play the game anyways, why don't you vote with your wallet instead and quit the game instead?
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#56 - 2013-01-16 06:49:01 UTC
Gunship wrote:
To the OP +1, excellent post.

The only small thing I would like to add is that you should not be able to enter a plex if you have WCS or a cloak fitted.




DUDE, GET OUT OF MY COMMS!

We were discussing this re: Nezmor's stabbed plex alts just yesterday.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#57 - 2013-01-16 07:03:45 UTC
Defensive plexing having lower LP rewards than offensive plexing makes sense. At least on the face of it.
Dust afffecting VP and system capture makes sense. At least on the face of it.

Except now we are lumbered with Dust, we cannot actually do anything to alter the dust planet modifier which, eg, in Aset, is apparently against Minmatar, making the offensive plexers do 25% more VP damage, and reducing our deplexing effort 25%.

This, frankly, is ridiculous in a situation where we cannot - literally cannot due to the half-arsed implementation of the Dust beta - organise an effective defence of the system on the planets. BUGRY has 10 Dust members, and they are stationed randomly about space, taking random missions, in random places, to do random things. The corporation cannot direct their efforts towards the systems we want to defend and deplex.

Thus, deplexing is a woeful time sink. Truly woeful. 3 hours, a dozen plexes, 2% off contestation. Thanks, CCP, I really love the awesome tie-in you have here. Then, when Cynthia signs on her plexing horde, it will probably flip tonight because the momentum is with the plexing alts (plus the LP's and the fact he deploys so many stabbed cloaky Bantams its ridiculous).

Which is fine. I have a life outside of EVE, and Cynthia doesn't. I get spend time humping my wife while Cynthia humps pixels. Each to their own, as they say. All i know is, my wife's analogs are bigger than Cynthia's digitals.

My problem is, the plex rats (as Veshta says) are too pansy and flimsy. Cynthia deploys a Daredevil to nuke even medium plex rats within seconds, then installs Alfred olacar in the cloaky Bantam. No further rats spawn, meaning you don't even need a gun. Welcome back to gunless cloaking plexing alts.

Secondly, defplexing getting lower LP is fine. But no war is run solely on the offensive. That's welping. With station lock-outs, you can't welp-attack contantly and let your defplexing slip, because the logistical stupid is just too great. Thus, 5 toon-hours for one guy sucks 5 guy's one toon hour. Plus, with a 25% VP effect from dust, that's really 6 for, 4 against at the moment, which is a huge skew. The LP payouts are also equally skewed.

LP rewards for defplexing need looking at, as does wiping off the Dust planet modifiers prior to us having the ability to write contracts, defend, and organise with Dust monkeys. CCP has put everything in place to screw up the warzone with Dust, except the ability for us to unscrew it.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#58 - 2013-01-16 09:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
X Gallentius wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
Because you know the game is still broken, I should stop posting about it? Ugh Another non sequitur from XG.
You don't play the game, and the vast majority of people who do play the game know that it is mostly working ok....

You do know what majority means right?

Just out of curiosity though, what in your view, is required of a person for him/her to be considered 'playing the game'? Farm a bazillion VP/LP per week? Whore on umpteen mails per week?

You are fully entitled to rummage around the manure pile as you see fit, but don't knock us for wanting try to stick that manure into a bio-gas refinery to create something better.
Trinkets friend wrote:
.... Cynthia deploys a Daredevil to nuke even medium plex rats within seconds, then installs Alfred olacar in the cloaky Bantam. No further rats spawn, meaning you don't even need a gun. Welcome back to gunless cloaking plexing alts...

Predicted this behaviour prior to changes going though, glad to see it confirmed. Quite simply the most efficient way to do it with the current rules .. the plexing speed on Gall/Cald front points towards heavy use of same method as does the speed on Min/Amarr so not 'kosher' to name names I think Big smile

As for Dust; The whole idea is for CCP to make cash and the tie-in is rather ingenious, having Dust act as a modifier on the goings on in Eve .. both sides have equal opportunity to affect said modifier as it can swing both ways and the modifiers have been in place for a long time (think it was with October patch).
Question is if it wouldn't have been more 'fair' to reset all districts to have no ownership (ie. 0% modifier) when the tie-in was activated.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#59 - 2013-01-16 15:31:56 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Just out of curiosity though, what in your view, is required of a person for him/her to be considered 'playing the game'? Farm a bazillion VP/LP per week? ***** on umpteen mails per week?
It's good to see your corp is finally in FW and that you're actually getting some kills. +1.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#60 - 2013-01-16 17:26:29 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Just out of curiosity though, what in your view, is required of a person for him/her to be considered 'playing the game'? Farm a bazillion VP/LP per week? ***** on umpteen mails per week?
It's good to see your corp is finally in FW and that you're actually getting some kills. +1.


XG does, of course, includes the people who are just farming and whoring kms as playing the sov war game. It doesn't matter to him that the vast majority don't care at all who is winning the sov war. He still wants to count them as satisfied customers. Just like people who used to do nothing but whore missions were satisfied customers.

If he only looked at people who actually log in and do their absolute best to win sov well it would just be him Nezmor Zarnak and Sasawong.

So despite the fact that only 4 players are really trying to win the game that doesn't mean its broken. After all those 4 people are happy with the mechanic.