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Your thoughts on the Jaguar, and the Wolf for pvp
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Vigilant Archer
Doomheim
#1 - 2011-10-24 23:37:58 UTC
I was looking over the stats for the Rifter, Jaguar and Wolf and it seems to me that the jaguar leans towards a shield tank with the resists, shield hp and slot layout, but the problem is if you were to shield tank in pvp you would hurt your tackling capabilites.
so If you don't shield tank a jaguar the lowslots for armor tanking are no different than the rifter's lowslots. The wolf on the other hand leans more towards armor tanking, which is generally good for pvp, but it only has 2 midslots, something that seems a bit of a drawback for pvp as you can't fit a warp scrambler, webber, and an AB or MWD, which are three highly recommended mods for pvp.

So I ask what is your thoughts on these two ships which do you think would be better for pvp and why, also what impact do you think their slot layout and tanking tendencies have on their effectiveness for PvP?

Also what are your thoughts in general about these two ships?
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2011-10-25 00:05:04 UTC
From what I've seen, the Wolf is sub-par due to only two Mids. However, a Jag can fit a MSE and still fit full tackle, which is typically fine for tank (and they can fit Gyros for more DPS too).
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#3 - 2011-10-25 00:11:44 UTC
mxzf wrote:
From what I've seen, the Wolf is sub-par due to only two Mids. However, a Jag can fit a MSE and still fit full tackle, which is typically fine for tank (and they can fit Gyros for more DPS too).


To expand on this a bit: Jag gets a huge boon from being T2 Minmatar: natural shield omnitank. Sure, additional resists still help, but you don't have the glaring EM hole that any other ship would if you just slapped on an oversized extender. That leaves enough room for full tackle plus prop if you so choose.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#4 - 2011-10-25 03:08:37 UTC
Jaguar is overall the most versatile of the Minmatar AF. The Wolf though - the sheer DPS it can spit out as well as the distance it can project it - is appealing in it's own right.

Having said that, AF are supposed to get a buff this winter so any answers you get here are 'temporary'. P
Vigilant Archer
Doomheim
#5 - 2011-10-25 03:41:28 UTC
True the AF's are supposed to get a buff, so as you said any answers may be temporary but the buff should apply equally to all AF's so when comparing the two it shouldn't make that much of a difference, although I may try to pose this topic again.

I thought just crossed my mind, how would the two compare in small fleet PvP? Large fleet PvP? and solo PvP?

(seperate thought don't mix the above with the below unless you feel like it)

Now let me throw in a bit of a situation, out of curiosity how would the two compare if say your target wouldn't run away (unrealistic yes but it does provide an interesting thought) but your target could still yes mwd drives and the like?

As for the minmatar shield omnitank, that is a good point, but please expand I'm interested in hearing more on that, mostly because you hardly ever hear of a shield tank in a pvp situation.

also as mentioned the added dps and range of the wolf do make it appealing for that matter, but how does that bonus compare with the versatility and the tackling capability of the jaguar (have to say it is one of the most versatile ships I've ever seen with the just about even slot layout)

just an added note: when comparing the two with the rifter the jaguar seems to be the more rifter like because the rifter has more shield hp and has pretty even slot layout which is what the jaguar has, while the wolf has more of a armor centered minmatar guns blazing approach to it.

and continue.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#6 - 2011-10-25 04:41:08 UTC
I've fought in a wolf enough to have the opinion that it's best configuration is one in which you abandon any pretense at defense and simply go for the largest DPS possible. With some cheap damage implants I usually end up with 302 DPS and a meager 5.8k EHP.

My Setup:
High:
200mm II x 4
Small nuet II
Med:
Named MWD
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler
Low:
Gyro II
TEII
F85 Peripheral Damage Control Unit
Adaptive Nano II
Rigs:
Projectile Burst
Projectile Collision

The Tracking Enhancer allows my 200mm to be more accurate then they normally would be. And the MSE on the Jag make it a bigger target then I am. Lastly - the Jaguar will usually fit Barrage to my Faction Ammo. You'll therefore see a Jag with 140 - 190 DPS and 14k EHP to 8k EHP. Greater DPS and range wins out in my experience.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#7 - 2011-10-25 05:36:33 UTC
Vigilant Archer wrote:
As for the minmatar shield omnitank, that is a good point, but please expand I'm interested in hearing more on that, mostly because you hardly ever hear of a shield tank in a pvp situation.


You're joking, right? From what I've seen shield is the king of small gang/nano PvP due to speed and agility.

With the 75/60/40/50 shield resists that the Min AFs have, you don't really need much resist boosting. With halfway decent skills, a Jag with just a MSE2 fit to it has about 6.5k EHP and a 25 DPS/sec omni tank. Toss in an Extender rig and a DC2 and you're pushing 9.5k EHP with two lowslots free for Gyros and plenty of room for tackle/prop mod.

Personally, I'd take a Jag for solo PvP roaming and a Wolf for small gang work if tackle's not a concern. I'm pretty sure a Wolf with an AB+MSE for tank and a full gank fit would work quite well in any AF/small ship roam.

Of course, it is 1:30AM here, so take what I say with a grain of salt, lol.
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#8 - 2011-10-25 06:42:52 UTC
Jags are shield tankers, really no exceptions here outside of maybe some sort of weird special purpose fit. The thing is, you only need a two slot tank on them and one of those is the DCII, the other is an MSE or shield booster (generally you'll do MSE). Assuming you go with the MSE, that leaves you with 3 midslots to use for propulsion and tackle. So that gives you an mwd or AB (your choice), a point and a web. What more do you want? It is my view that out of all the AF's, the jag is substantially superior to all others except the hawk, which is slightly slower but otherwise its equal.

The wolf suffers the problem all other armor tanked AF"s have, it's slow and unmanuverable. The result is it's a sitting duck for virtually all other ships in the game and has little or no purpose outside of frigate dueling.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Comboduck
The Voices Keep Getting Louder
#9 - 2011-10-25 07:10:26 UTC
Vigilant Archer wrote:

you hardly ever hear of a shield tank in a pvp situation.


Right. Except for Tengu fleets, drake fleets, alpha fleets, welpcanes, roaming gangs...
If you want advice, you probably shouldn't pretend that you know what you are talking about.

Jaguar one of the best assault frigs in game, and it has the potential to kill most frigs around. As for fiting it, it's fairly straight forward.

highs: GUNZ and a neut if you have the pg
mids propmod (mwd or ab depends on where you will be fighting) scram/web mse
lows gyro/dc/nano

hf
Vigilant Archer
Doomheim
#10 - 2011-10-25 22:51:29 UTC
When I asked for more elaboration on shield tanking I did not mean to imply that armor tanking is superior in any way I merely wished for more of an explanation so that those who wish to know more about shield tanking may learn more about shield tanking. And yes I have heard about drake and tengu fleets and the like, but I hardly ever hear shield tanking for pvp mentioned in a positive or even neutral way in the forumns.

May I ask for any fittings of the jaguar or wolf or both that have worked for you (if You have not tried them out please do not post them) and please explain why they have worked for you, what situations have they worked best in and in what situations do they have trouble with.

Pros and cons for the jaguar and the wolf as found in this topic.

Jaguar
Pros
-versatile
-large tank
-fast and agile
-tackles well
-(I had one more the first time I tried posting this but it failed to post so I had to redo all of this and have since forgotten the fifth)

Cons
-less dps

Wolf
Pros
-more dps
-performs well in situations where tackling is not an issue.

Cons
-slow and less agile
-smaller tank
-rigid fittings
-(once again had another one but have since forgottten it)

In my previous attempt at posting this the Jaguar had +5 and -1 coming out with +4 and the wolf had +2 and -4 coming out with -2.

In this attempt at posting the jaguar has +4 and -1 coming out with a +3 and the wolf has +2 and -3 coming out with -1.

May I ask for you guys to weight each pro and con in it's importance to pvp in your opinion with 1 being less important and 5 being very important, I will attempt to average out these ratings to come up with a more tailored rating system.

Also does this happen to anyone else or is it just me: you spend your time coming up with a nice well organized, thoughtful post and when you go to post it it fails to post, so you either give up or have to post it again, this is right around the 4th time this has happened to me and it's getting very annoying.

and continue.
Michael Turate
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-10-25 23:33:38 UTC
Buy 3 of each, fit em, go pew with em and then see which you prefer or which is more successful with your play style.

Rating systems etc - all bullchip, you have to fly them and find out as everything is situational based on your skills and the type of PVP you get into.

Shield tanking allows greater speed and mobility. Speed and mobility is currently what everyone want so you'll see more of these type of fits.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#12 - 2011-10-25 23:33:46 UTC
Vigilant Archer wrote:

Also does this happen to anyone else or is it just me: you spend your time coming up with a nice well organized, thoughtful post and when you go to post it it fails to post, so you either give up or have to post it again, this is right around the 4th time this has happened to me and it's getting very annoying.


This has been happening a lot on the new forums. Get in the habit of Ctrl+A, Ctrl+C before you hit POST (I've gotten to the point where I've done that a few times on Facebook too by now, lol).
cyka776
#13 - 2011-10-26 10:14:40 UTC
if you are in the jag you will get a fight in which you almost kill the target but not quite enough dps to finish it before the bolb lands on you and you die...wish youd brought the wolf

if you are in a wolf you will get a fight where you almost kill the target but they were a little faster than you (no web) and got away or got under your tracking and you die...wish youd brought the jag