These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

SuperCapital and Force projection is way too easy in EvE
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
fukier
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-01-14 21:00:16 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Ahh good, more posts about caps from people who have no clue about caps.


Hey guys, guys, something reasonable like 20km of the shields guys, reasonable



Hey grath you are one my fav peeps...

I would love to hear what your thoughts are on this? as you are in i would think the biggest super cap alliance there is and have the most experiance with them.

you are direct and i like that even though sometimes you come off as a jerk...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2013-01-14 21:00:50 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- Example If goons want to ***** on a titan kill down south in Omist. They can prolly come in time from Deklein before its killed.

Yeah, cause that's not speculation.
If they can it's because of tidi.

Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- PL are fighting in the south and if they got any troubles with their moons up in Venal they can be in full force in no time up there.

Gee, and here I was thinking there was this thing called a reinforcement timer that gave structure owners a considerable amount of time to move their **** and prepare for an attack.

Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- Lowsec stronger entities are sitting whole day on Titans and jumping on poor guys 3 bridges away (which gets em to the other side of lowsec).

This takes a lot longer than you think, and 3 bridges doesn't go as far as you seem to think it does either.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#103 - 2013-01-14 21:01:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


A titan and a cyno can move you from one side of EVE to the other in a single jump?


No, but certainly in a single night, which is far to quick.

Yes, I used to fly in null and ride the titan bridge roads a few years back.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#104 - 2013-01-14 21:03:02 UTC
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
[quote=fukier]

A titan and a cyno can move you from one side of EVE to the other in a single jump?


No, but certainly in a single night, which is far to quick.

Yes, I used to fly in null and ride the titan bridge roads a few years back.

Okay, let's just arbitrarily pick an amount of time it should take, since you're obviously not going to be happy until everything fits with your preconceived notion of how things should be.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#105 - 2013-01-14 21:03:49 UTC
This thread is almost as bad as that gigantic thread with the same five people insisting over and over again that local chat needed to be removed from nullsec.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2013-01-14 21:05:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:

I think you may be assuming too much.

They want fights, but I think it has come to the point over that last several years where Power Projection is actually stifling what null sec could be, and is actually preventing fights in the long run.

I know it is hard for you to see this. But many have felt the same, for many years now.

Those people who have those feelings are empirically and indisputably incorrect. Supercaps now require substantial support fleets, something that was missing during the dismal periods of post-Dominion, pre-Crucible null.

Firstly, nullsec has the most fights of any class of sec space.
Nullsec wars and even roams drive the majority of material and commodity consumption in EVE.
If wormholes and highsec had nullsec rules, ship losses (aka fights) would explode in both regions.
Lowsec is the only region that surpasses null per capita in terms of loss, and power projection is available there as well.
If the two regions with the highest level of fights both have "power projection" cyno mechanics available, it's safe to say the theory that projection prevents fights doesn't hold water.

Secondly, if all forms of non-gate transportation were removed tomorrow, you and all others still would not move to 0.0.
The lack of industrial capacity, lack of efficiency and opportunity cost (time spent securing the space and making supply runs backs and forth to highsec) involved would easily overshadow any potential gain you could make. Or maybe you could form a fleet to fly 50 jumps into Branch in order to reinforce a tech POS with subcaps, then alarm clock the reinforcement timer so you could make the same 50 trips over again. But I doubt it. The risk involved with business in null is appropriate, it's the reward for "smallholders" that is lacking.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#107 - 2013-01-14 21:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
You guys keep ignoring the part where CCP WANTS US TO.



I think you may be assuming too much.

They want fights, but I think it has come to the point over that last several years where Power Projection is actually stifling what null sec could be, and is actually preventing fights in the long run.

I know it is hard for you to see this. But many have felt the same, for many years now.

Same old argument and counter argument.

What the ****!


Here it is guys.
He's telling us mechanics designed specifically for us to do something, aren't intended for us to be used to do it.

WTF would they allow us to jump across space with a cyno and a titan if it isn't intended!!!


Somtimes somthing makes it too easy, which is why the JBs got nerf'd.

Now they need to go further, with the power projection of Caps/ SuperCaps.

I disagree. That ease is intended, because it encourages people to get involved in wars that they may otherwise not care about. We can care what happens in the south if we want to, and the south can care what happens in the north.


Look,
If there was 200k people in null, I would agree with you guys because we'd have the numbers in null to not need to worry about what's happening 30 jumps away. There aren't that many people though, and it's not because of titans or blobs, there's not that many people in all of EVE for the size of the world itself.

Making it more tedious will just compound the problem. No one's going to come to null because titans got nerfed, they will leave though.

Thousands of people all engaged in the same fight is something that only happens in EVE. It makes news. CCP wants us to do it, because it's unique to EVE and makes news.

And the CFC didn't get involved in the south. We let the south fight it out with HBC, and we "started" our own war.
We're not a bunch of idiots here. We know that people are here because they want to blow stuff up, and the powers that be make it a point to make sure people have people to shoot at., even when it seems there's no one to shoot at.

I'm not going to lie to ya, I'm a little more hostile than I need to be in some thread, but I hope it's encouraging enough to get some peopel to want to fly out and shoot us. It's more fun that way, and I only fly a badger.

If I **** you off enough to come out and shoot a goon, I feel like I'm accomplishing something worthwhile; for both of us.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2013-01-14 21:06:39 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
This thread is almost as bad as that gigantic thread with the same five people insisting over and over again that local chat needed to be removed from nullsec.


not removed but delayed would be nice.

sure would help with all those afk cloaking threads...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-01-14 21:09:05 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
[quote=fukier]

A titan and a cyno can move you from one side of EVE to the other in a single jump?


No, but certainly in a single night, which is far to quick.

Yes, I used to fly in null and ride the titan bridge roads a few years back.

Okay, let's just arbitrarily pick an amount of time it should take, since you're obviously not going to be happy until everything fits with your preconceived notion of how things should be.


i dont know about you but space is supposed to feel large and immense... and back in the day this was true... no longer is this a fact...

i am not sure if its a time thing or even a fact you can get across the damn thing that bothers me all together....
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#110 - 2013-01-14 21:10:28 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- Example If goons want to ***** on a titan kill down south in Omist. They can prolly come in time from Deklein before its killed.

Yeah, cause that's not speculation.
If they can it's because of tidi.

Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- PL are fighting in the south and if they got any troubles with their moons up in Venal they can be in full force in no time up there.

Gee, and here I was thinking there was this thing called a reinforcement timer that gave structure owners a considerable amount of time to move their **** and prepare for an attack.

Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- Lowsec stronger entities are sitting whole day on Titans and jumping on poor guys 3 bridges away (which gets em to the other side of lowsec).

This takes a lot longer than you think, and 3 bridges doesn't go as far as you seem to think it does either.


- Even without the Tidi

- Considerable amount of time like 30 mins?

- 3 jumps is pretty much enough to reach any lowsec point from another lowsec point and it takes no more than 5-10 mins.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#111 - 2013-01-14 21:11:19 UTC
I am just going to leave this here so Mr. Natsett Amuinn can't pedal past it and conveniently pretend like it was not said.
Kiss <3


Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Ok now you have recognized that proliferation does exist in eve (after 2-3 pages of debate tactics made to mask your back pedaling)


I can move ahead with my original point, that you do not seem to be addressing.




Person 1 (I guess being you) likes allot of titans/supers in your fleet and thinks that EVE should be this way
Person 2. Likes the idea of a one massive super-awesome-capital ship (presumably a titan) at the head of a fleet of much greater diversity. (As represented visually in the trailer that I mentioned... ya know, so stupid people don't get confused)




CCP happens to be on the side of person 1, at least at the moment. It was not always so. But what is important to understand (and is hard for narcissists to understand) is that one opinion is not superior to the other. Both can work just fine, and both ideas can support a viable fleet and viable fleet composition. Both are equal and both are legitimate opinions.




I hope I helped explain this very simple, kindergarten level idea to you. It is an important lesson that you will be able to apply towards your real life and perhaps reap deeply profound emotional rewards.

No stop... you don't have to thank me.
Well... ok. I guess you can.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#112 - 2013-01-14 21:11:48 UTC
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
[quote=fukier]

A titan and a cyno can move you from one side of EVE to the other in a single jump?


No, but certainly in a single night, which is far to quick.

Yes, I used to fly in null and ride the titan bridge roads a few years back.

Okay, let's just arbitrarily pick an amount of time it should take, since you're obviously not going to be happy until everything fits with your preconceived notion of how things should be.


i dont know about you gut space is supposed to feal large and immense... and back in the day this was true... no longer is this a fact...

i am not sure if its a time thing or even a fact you can get across the damn thing that bothers me all together....

So you enjoy travelling 30 jumps?

I don't, nor does it make anything feel "bigger" to me.

When I want to feel how big EVE is, I look at the map an the thousands of points I can visit.

Nor are titans used for general purpose travel through EVE, and when I gotta go 5 jumps through null, that **** feels huge.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2013-01-14 21:13:31 UTC
fukier wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
[quote=fukier]

A titan and a cyno can move you from one side of EVE to the other in a single jump?


No, but certainly in a single night, which is far to quick.

Yes, I used to fly in null and ride the titan bridge roads a few years back.

Okay, let's just arbitrarily pick an amount of time it should take, since you're obviously not going to be happy until everything fits with your preconceived notion of how things should be.


i dont know about you gut space is supposed to feal large and immense... and back in the day this was true... no longer is this a fact...

i am not sure if its a time thing or even a fact you can get across the damn thing that bothers me all together....

"Space should feel big" is not a valid argument in a discussion of balance.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#114 - 2013-01-14 21:15:07 UTC
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- Even without the Tidi

I think you vastly underestimate the amount of time it takes to travel that far, and overestimate the amount of time it takes to kill a titan.

Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- Considerable amount of time like 30 mins?

Like 24+ hours.

Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- 3 jumps is pretty much enough to reach any lowsec point from another lowsec point and it takes no more than 5-10 mins.

Wrong.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
fukier
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2013-01-14 21:15:54 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
So you enjoy travelling 30 jumps?

I don't, nor does it make anything feel "bigger" to me.

When I want to feel how big EVE is, I look at the map an the thousands of points I can visit.

Nor are titans used for general purpose travel through EVE, and when I gotta go 5 jumps through null, that **** feels huge.


but did you not say you can undock from vfk and find a fight? is it not your own fault for creating mega coalitions that causes the need to move 30 plus jumps to get a fight?

you could if you wanted reset someone like i dunno FA or SMA and fight them or even Razor... its your choice not to...
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2013-01-14 21:16:07 UTC
And what's with the jump clones i tellz ya?
The last time i got instant transmission that fast was my last trip to the local whorehouse!
i thought space was supposed to be big, ya get me? only space i see is between the guy's ears who thought of this 'jump clone' idea
i gets no respect i tells ya, no respect
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2013-01-14 21:17:53 UTC
fukier wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
So you enjoy travelling 30 jumps?

I don't, nor does it make anything feel "bigger" to me.

When I want to feel how big EVE is, I look at the map an the thousands of points I can visit.

Nor are titans used for general purpose travel through EVE, and when I gotta go 5 jumps through null, that **** feels huge.


but did you not say you can undock from vfk and find a fight? is it not your own fault for creating mega coalitions that causes the need to move 30 plus jumps to get a fight?

you could if you wanted reset someone like i dunno FA or SMA and fight them or even Razor... its your choice not to...

So according to you he said he can undock and find a fight right away, and then he said he can't find a fight without going 30 jumps.
Make up your mind already.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#118 - 2013-01-14 21:20:29 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
I am just going to leave this here so Mr. Natsett Amuinn can't pedal past it and conveniently pretend like it was not said.
Kiss <3


Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Ok now you have recognized that proliferation does exist in eve (after 2-3 pages of debate tactics made to mask your back pedaling)


I can move ahead with my original point, that you do not seem to be addressing.




Person 1 (I guess being you) likes allot of titans/supers in your fleet and thinks that EVE should be this way
Person 2. Likes the idea of a one massive super-awesome-capital ship (presumably a titan) at the head of a fleet of much greater diversity. (As represented visually in the trailer that I mentioned... ya know, so stupid people don't get confused)




CCP happens to be on the side of person 1, at least at the moment. It was not always so. But what is important to understand (and is hard for narcissists to understand) is that one opinion is not superior to the other. Both can work just fine, and both ideas can support a viable fleet and viable fleet composition. Both are equal and both are legitimate opinions.




I hope I helped explain this very simple, kindergarten level idea to you. It is an important lesson that you will be able to apply towards your real life and perhaps reap deeply profound emotional rewards.

No stop... you don't have to thank me.
Well... ok. I guess you can.

Please explain why you think I'm to stupid to understand what proliferation means?

I even put it in a sentence properly for you.


Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#119 - 2013-01-14 21:21:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- Even without the Tidi

I think you vastly underestimate the amount of time it takes to travel that far, and overestimate the amount of time it takes to kill a titan.

Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- Considerable amount of time like 30 mins?

Like 24+ hours.

Zloco Crendraven wrote:
- 3 jumps is pretty much enough to reach any lowsec point from another lowsec point and it takes no more than 5-10 mins.

Wrong.


- Ahm i moved few times from vale to Omist. And took for my ex Corp (with no so good experience) about not even 30 mins to get there with all our stuff. (5 bridges)

- Even if the Timer is 30 mins they d be in time. Keeping that assets that easy should be a at least a bit of a hassle.

- I live in lowsec for already 1 year and we did those 3 jumps billion of times cos of our nomad style of life, and guess what, it takes 5-10 mins.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
fukier
Gallente Federation
#120 - 2013-01-14 21:21:29 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
fukier wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
So you enjoy travelling 30 jumps?

I don't, nor does it make anything feel "bigger" to me.

When I want to feel how big EVE is, I look at the map an the thousands of points I can visit.

Nor are titans used for general purpose travel through EVE, and when I gotta go 5 jumps through null, that **** feels huge.


but did you not say you can undock from vfk and find a fight? is it not your own fault for creating mega coalitions that causes the need to move 30 plus jumps to get a fight?

you could if you wanted reset someone like i dunno FA or SMA and fight them or even Razor... its your choice not to...

So according to you he said he can undock and find a fight right away, and then he said he can't find a fight without going 30 jumps.
Make up your mind already.


i know its odd for him to say this...

but its true you guys dont need to be able to get from cobalt to stain in 12 min do you?

the only reason this is needed is due to large coalitions which are capable of existing due to op force projection...

i am sure ifyou actually had to jump 40+ jumps to find a real fight with out Titan brdiges and stuff 0.0 would be alot more intersting... as no one is making you form large coalitions but your selves
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.