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SuperCapital and Force projection is way too easy in EvE
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Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#81 - 2013-01-14 20:38:37 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:




EVE novels, lol. "And then John got podded, THE END."
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#82 - 2013-01-14 20:40:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Yusef Yeasef Yosef
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Null is intended for large scale player activity, and tools need to facilitate that, including the ability to move around large numbers quickly. No one wants to spend hours on end moving across the mob to engage in war, and CCP wants peopel to engae in large scale fights in null.


And nothing says you can't do this in a larger playing environment. You will just have to choose your target more carefully, and make sure you leave forces at home to protect your assests at home.


Yeah, cause we definitely don't do this now.



No argument there. But if it took 10 times longer to go anywhere, it would take ten times longer to get back. You would be less likely to go that far in the first place.

Less likely, not say you still wouldn't.

You would, or should, choose your targets more carefully.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#83 - 2013-01-14 20:42:26 UTC
Natsett Amuinn, i am not trying to insult you. You honestly did not seem to understand the notion when it was presented to you. Now I gather you do understand.



So are you saying that there is proliferation of supers and titans now? Or are you still claiming that there is no such thing.

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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#84 - 2013-01-14 20:42:39 UTC
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

Null is intended for large scale player activity, and tools need to facilitate that, including the ability to move around large numbers quickly. No one wants to spend hours on end moving across the mob to engage in war, and CCP wants peopel to engae in large scale fights in null.


And nothing says you can't do this in a larger playing environment. You will just have to choose your target more carefully, and make sure you leave forces at home to protect your assests at home.


Yeah, cause we definitely don't do this now.



No argument there. But if it took 10 times longer to go anywhere, it would take ten times longer to get back. You would be less likely to go that far in the first place.

Less likely, not say you still wouldn't.

You would, or should, chose your targets more carefully.

You guys keep ignoring the part where CCP WANTS US TO.

Why is this hard to accept? CCP wants us to be able to move 40 jumps easily, so we WILL go that far for a fight. It's like you guys are are ignoring this or pretending as if it's not intended.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#85 - 2013-01-14 20:43:14 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:




EVE novels, lol. "And then John got podded, THE END."

Did you do that when the guy used a TRAILER to justify a titan nerf?

No, you did not. Please do.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2013-01-14 20:44:50 UTC
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
You would be less likely to go that far in the first place.

Here's the part you're not getting.
There's no reason why we shouldn't be going that far if we want to.
Besides, we don't travel across the EVE universe to get a fight. We do that to invade people's space. And we use staging systems to do that, which no nerf to titan bridging or whatnot will be able to change.
So how do you propose to make it more difficult for us to achieve strategic objectives in distant locations?
Furthermore, why do you think it should be more difficult?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#87 - 2013-01-14 20:46:28 UTC
Ahh good, more posts about caps from people who have no clue about caps.


Hey guys, guys, something reasonable like 20km of the shields guys, reasonable

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#88 - 2013-01-14 20:48:18 UTC
posting in a 2011 thread
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#89 - 2013-01-14 20:48:46 UTC
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:


No argument there. But if it took 10 times longer to go anywhere, it would take ten times longer to get back. You would be less likely to go that far in the first place.

Less likely, not say you still wouldn't.

You would, or should, choose your targets more carefully.


One guy in PL has 12 cyno accounts (thats 3 cynos per account), several have 8 or more. We will go across eve to hot drop a badger and nothing at all will ever change our desire to do that.

If you make it harder to do we'll simply create enough tools to make the job easy again.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#90 - 2013-01-14 20:48:48 UTC
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
Natsett Amuinn, i am not trying to insult you. You honestly did not seem to understand the notion when it was presented to you. Now I gather you do understand.



So are you saying that there is proliferation of supers and titans now? Or are you still claiming that there is no such thing.

You really think I'm that stupid?

I know what proliferation means. It's nothing to do with any issue in EVE.

How about the proliferation of miners in high sec due to added safety of mining barges and exhumers. That's a real issue of prliferation within EVE.

We're suppose to build the ******* titans. It's INTENDED. It's one of the perks of being a sov holder.

Titans are designed to move us quickly across large portions of space, to facility large scale warfare. CCP intentially gave us this abililty, it's intended.

You guys keep basing your ideas for nerfs off the idea that we're doing something CCP didn't intend for us to do.
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#91 - 2013-01-14 20:50:59 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
You guys keep ignoring the part where CCP WANTS US TO.



I think you may be assuming too much.

They want fights, but I think it has come to the point over that last several years where Power Projection is actually stifling what null sec could be, and is actually preventing fights in the long run.

I know it is hard for you to see this. But many have felt the same, for many years now.

Same old argument and counter argument.
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#92 - 2013-01-14 20:51:35 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
posting in a 2011 thread



Yessir, P
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#93 - 2013-01-14 20:52:22 UTC  |  Edited by: James Amril-Kesh
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
You guys keep ignoring the part where CCP WANTS US TO.



I think you may be assuming too much.

They want fights, but I think it has come to the point over that last several years where Power Projection is actually stifling what null sec could be, and is actually preventing fights in the long run.

I know it is hard for you to see this. But many have felt the same, for many years now.

Same old argument and counter argument.

Yeah, the tool that moves people together so that they fight each other is definitely causing there to be less fights.
Cause that makes sense.

Or should we go back and look at the stats of how many ships are destroyed per capita for each security type? You know as well as I do that nullsec has more ships destroyed in PVP per capita than any other sec.
Yeah, fights aren't happening, we're just imagining it.

There is some stifling going on here, but it has nothing to do with force projection and everything to do with ****** sov mechanics and incentives to hold space.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#94 - 2013-01-14 20:52:43 UTC
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
You guys keep ignoring the part where CCP WANTS US TO.



I think you may be assuming too much.

They want fights, but I think it has come to the point over that last several years where Power Projection is actually stifling what null sec could be, and is actually preventing fights in the long run.

I know it is hard for you to see this. But many have felt the same, for many years now.

Same old argument and counter argument.

What the ****!


Here it is guys.
He's telling us mechanics designed specifically for us to do something, aren't intended for us to be used to do it.

WTF would they allow us to jump across space with a cyno and a titan if it isn't intended!!!
fukier
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2013-01-14 20:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: fukier
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
fukier wrote:
ok you guys really dont like the mass limit on cynos (well atleast the cfc peeps dont)

i have yet to read non cfc people complain about the idea (but the one guy posting with his alt sounds like he could be former bob)

but what about a spool up time for jump drives? (that way you cant et or cap recharge your way across the universe)

or do you think you should get from one side of teh universe to the other in under 30 min... ( i myself with my alts can get from stain to syndicate really fast in my thanny its just a matter of how fast i can cap up)

or titans having to be outside of a pos for the bridge to work?

those two ideas must seem reasonable...

the reason why i said mass limts for cyno's is to try to make some sort of restrictions for larger pvp... like you see in WH space... but for capital projection and fleet projection...

if it just ends up being a hassle thats cool... its just a suggestion. ( i know with Tidi and stuff like that that CCP markets Blobs and tahts cool with me)

I'm just looking for ways to spice things up...you know?

but like someone said earlier in the thread they had thier cyno char pop before everyone could jump which lead to them loosing the fight...

this sounds like a good thing and if there had to be multiple cynoes it would make it more interesting. (as from an outside perspective it should take mass amount of coordination to move massive fleets around... though some would argue this already takes place and its more then a resonable argument)

....

I thought there was a spool up time for certian jump drives?

Titans outside a PoS sounds fine.


I don't think you made a particular conection though. It's not that we don't like the idea of improving things, we don't like the idea of nerfing things that facility large scale combat (most of us at least), because that's something unique to EVE.

Making it harder to move, is not better. It's tedious. Tedium doesn't improve things.

Null is intended for large scale player activity, and tools need to facilitate that, including the ability to move around large numbers quickly. No one wants to spend hours on end moving across the mob to engage in war, and CCP wants peopel to engae in large scale fights in null.


i agree in large scale fights i just dont see any reason why it has to be on the oppisite side of the universe...

You guys choose to mkae gigantic coalitions which then requrie youto travel emse distance just to find a fight...i think its the rist adverse nature of eve players that made this.
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
Zloco Crendraven
BALKAN EXPRESS
Shadow Cartel
#96 - 2013-01-14 20:54:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zloco Crendraven
Titan bridges are broken. SC projection is broken. Few Examples:

- If Goons want to whhore on a titan kill down south in Omist, they can prolly come in time from Deklein before its killed.

- PL are fighting in the south and if they got any troubles with their moons up in Venal they can be in full force in no time up there.

- Lowsec stronger entities are sitting whole day on Titans and jumping on poor guys 3 bridges away (which gets em to the other side of lowsec).

I mean wtf?

It is just too easy. And ppl complaining on this thread are those that are abusing badly this mechanic.

"POS" Jump bridges are working just fine. Every bridge mechanic should be like that. Range and fuel consumption.
Jump bridges, Titan bridges, drops from SC and other capitals should give an edge defending your systems (few jumps around 1-3 max) or if attacking the first closest red zone.

Also Titans should bridge with the fleet.

Being omnipresent all around New Eden is just plain wrong.

BALEX, bringing piracy on a whole new level.
Eternum Praetorian
Doomheim
#97 - 2013-01-14 20:56:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternum Praetorian
Ok now you have recognized that proliferation does exist in eve (after 2-3 pages of debate tactics made to mask your back pedaling)


I can move ahead with my original point, that you do not seem to be addressing.




Person 1 (I guess being you) likes allot of titans/supers in your fleet and thinks that EVE should be this way
Person 2. Likes the idea of a one massive super-awesome-capital ship (presumably a titan) at the head of a fleet of much greater diversity. (As represented visually in the trailer that I mentioned... ya know, so stupid people don't get confused)




CCP happens to be on the side of person 1, at least at the moment. It was not always so. But what is important to understand (and is hard for narcissists to understand) is that one opinion is not superior to the other. Both can work just fine, and both ideas can support a viable fleet and viable fleet composition. Both are equal and both are legitimate opinions.




I hope I helped explain this very simple, kindergarten level idea to you. It is an important lesson that you will be able to apply towards your real life and perhaps reap deeply profound emotional rewards.

No stop... you don't have to thank me.
Well... ok. I guess you can.

[center]The EVE Gateway Blog[/center] [center]One Of EVE Online's Ultimate Resources[/center]
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#98 - 2013-01-14 20:56:34 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
You guys keep ignoring the part where CCP WANTS US TO.



I think you may be assuming too much.

They want fights, but I think it has come to the point over that last several years where Power Projection is actually stifling what null sec could be, and is actually preventing fights in the long run.

I know it is hard for you to see this. But many have felt the same, for many years now.

Same old argument and counter argument.

What the ****!


Here it is guys.
He's telling us mechanics designed specifically for us to do something, aren't intended for us to be used to do it.

WTF would they allow us to jump across space with a cyno and a titan if it isn't intended!!!


Somtimes somthing makes it too easy, which is why the JBs got nerf'd.

Now they need to go further, with the power projection of Caps/ SuperCaps.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-01-14 20:57:39 UTC
fukier wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
fukier wrote:
ok you guys really dont like the mass limit on cynos (well atleast the cfc peeps dont)

i have yet to read non cfc people complain about the idea (but the one guy posting with his alt sounds like he could be former bob)

but what about a spool up time for jump drives? (that way you cant et or cap recharge your way across the universe)

or do you think you should get from one side of teh universe to the other in under 30 min... ( i myself with my alts can get from stain to syndicate really fast in my thanny its just a matter of how fast i can cap up)

or titans having to be outside of a pos for the bridge to work?

those two ideas must seem reasonable...

the reason why i said mass limts for cyno's is to try to make some sort of restrictions for larger pvp... like you see in WH space... but for capital projection and fleet projection...

if it just ends up being a hassle thats cool... its just a suggestion. ( i know with Tidi and stuff like that that CCP markets Blobs and tahts cool with me)

I'm just looking for ways to spice things up...you know?

but like someone said earlier in the thread they had thier cyno char pop before everyone could jump which lead to them loosing the fight...

this sounds like a good thing and if there had to be multiple cynoes it would make it more interesting. (as from an outside perspective it should take mass amount of coordination to move massive fleets around... though some would argue this already takes place and its more then a resonable argument)

....

I thought there was a spool up time for certian jump drives?

Titans outside a PoS sounds fine.


I don't think you made a particular conection though. It's not that we don't like the idea of improving things, we don't like the idea of nerfing things that facility large scale combat (most of us at least), because that's something unique to EVE.

Making it harder to move, is not better. It's tedious. Tedium doesn't improve things.

Null is intended for large scale player activity, and tools need to facilitate that, including the ability to move around large numbers quickly. No one wants to spend hours on end moving across the mob to engage in war, and CCP wants peopel to engae in large scale fights in null.


i agree in large scale fights i just dont see any reason why it has to be on the oppisite side of the universe...

You guys choose to mkae gigantic coalitions which then requrie youto travel emse distance just to find a fight...i think its the rist adverse nature of eve players that made this.

That's wrong.

I don't know were you guys get this idea that we need to travel to the other end of new eden for a fight, we do not.

I can undock from VFK and get myself blown up near VFK, I don't need to travel any great length. There are constantly people in our space, trying to blow us up.


A titan and a cyno can move you from one side of EVE to the other in a single jump?
Mathrin
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#100 - 2013-01-14 20:58:51 UTC
fukier wrote:
ok you guys really dont like the mass limit on cynos (well atleast the cfc peeps dont)

i have yet to read non cfc people complain about the idea (but the one guy posting with his alt sounds like he could be former bob)

but what about a spool up time for jump drives? (that way you cant et or cap recharge your way across the universe)

or do you think you should get from one side of teh universe to the other in under 30 min... ( i myself with my alts can get from stain to syndicate really fast in my thanny its just a matter of how fast i can cap up)

or titans having to be outside of a pos for the bridge to work?

those two ideas must seem reasonable...

the reason why i said mass limts for cyno's is to try to make some sort of restrictions for larger pvp... like you see in WH space... but for capital projection and fleet projection...

if it just ends up being a hassle thats cool... its just a suggestion. ( i know with Tidi and stuff like that that CCP markets Blobs and tahts cool with me)

I'm just looking for ways to spice things up...you know?

but like someone said earlier in the thread they had thier cyno char pop before everyone could jump which lead to them loosing the fight...

this sounds like a good thing and if there had to be multiple cynoes it would make it more interesting. (as from an outside perspective it should take mass amount of coordination to move massive fleets around... though some would argue this already takes place and its more then a resonable argument)



I'm not CFC and I'm against the mass limit cuz lets be honest. If they are fielding 300 BSes getting five more cynos is probably not an issue... Think about what effect the changes you are suggesting will have in a realist manner. Even forcing titans off POS they will be unsafe for 5 minutes.