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Mapping part 2
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Cave Lord
Workers' Compensation
Sukyoko-Moussa Ltd.
#1 - 2011-10-10 07:23:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Cave Lord
My original thread was wiped out. :(

Since there was no error message/warning/dumplog, I'm not too pleased having the last hour of my carefully thought-out work thrown in the bin bucket. Forum coders, take note please.

Nevertheless:
This thread was inspired by: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=18500 I was going to post there, but it ballooned into a topic of its own.

Assuming that WH space is in the same galaxy as EVE and WH space is right next to us, with our space being a "prison/sandbox" that we are kept in... (first few lines)


We know that stargate technology only works in certain systems with certain stars.
1) Do the stars in WH space meet the requirements for gate technology?

2) We know the Talocan have a kind of... "space needle" (forgot the name) that does something to stars, possibly related to isogen-5. When the accident occurred and WH's opened up, did the stars in the majorly-effected systems change types in any way, shape, or form? Do they still meet the requirements for gate-building technology?

We believe the Talocan are explorers and that WH space is charted in a spiral (Thanks Calathea Sata)
3) Can we mark the EVE WH on the spiral map? I'm wondering if WH space was mapped by a civilization that originated from the EVE WH. This may also help with the problem of why we have 1 class 6 "group" and why things get easier as you go towards the center of the galaxy. Class 1's would represent the "furthest" systems and thus, have the least presence.
3b) What kind of sites are in the different WH classes? For example: Class1= frontier/whatever, Class6=Core
- It makes sense to scope out the perimeter first, right?
Cave Lord
Workers' Compensation
Sukyoko-Moussa Ltd.
#2 - 2011-10-12 05:17:01 UTC
I went ahead and created a map with COSMOS constellations overlayed.

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/Fishscene/EVE-Online/EVEMapoverlay.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h269/Fishscene/EVE-Online/EVEMaprotate180.jpg

I noticed a couple of things:
  • If I overlayed the WH "starting point" (Yellow arrow) on the EVE gate, the class 6 WH's were in Jove space.
  • I then flipped the WH map 180 degrees and set the class 6 WH's over the EVE gate. The class1 WH's were in Jove space.

    • I really didn't find any correllation between the WH maps and where the COSMOS missions were located (supposedly the best places to find evidence of Ancient races in K-space.)


    Thoughts?
    Kirian Kador
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #3 - 2011-10-14 11:33:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirian Kador
    I salute your effort, but unless you can tell us how to spawn static wormholes into specific systems or constellations/regions at least, it is going to remain just a curiosity of little practical value. I know I have been on this path myself. Then again maybe you will have more luck than me so keep trying
    Cynthia Gallente
    GERAS INDUSTRIES
    #4 - 2011-10-16 20:13:47 UTC
    What exactly are you trying to prove with this?
    I'm very intrigued as to the layout of W-Space.
    I've never been there myself though, as I am still afraid of death.

    Post with your lick™
    Cave Lord
    Workers' Compensation
    Sukyoko-Moussa Ltd.
    #5 - 2011-10-20 03:34:06 UTC
    sorry for the late reply.

    Believe it or not, I'm not actually trying to prove anything. What I am trying to do, is maybe shed some light on things that maybe haven't been explored yet and see what people think/make of it.

    I'm not an expert, and as proven in the past, I may be re-inventing the wheel here. But I thought to myself: "If these WH systems are in fact, right next to us, but inaccessible, wouldn't there be some kind of evidence, somewhere, to show this?"

    So I grabbed the WH map, showing an apparent "direction" of WH classes and overlayed that on top of our K-space map and tried to see if there was any correlation/similarities/pop-ups. In addition, since COSMOS missions seemed to be intertwined with the EVE backstory, I figured I'd flag those systems on the map as well to see if their locations had anything to do with anything.

    One of the problems we had in the past was, to align 2 maps, you must have a common reference point. The only thing I could think of was the EVE gate on the K-space map and the WH classes on the WH map.

    Conclusion/Results:
    Results were disappointing as the only thing I could make out was that Class 1 and Class 6 WH's, if they are right next to us, end or start on the EVE gate/Jove space. While this may be of some use to someone building a backstory, it is useless to me as it essentially doesn't lead me to anything but more speculation.

    My involvement is supposed to reduce speculation :P
    Calathea Sata
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #6 - 2011-10-21 22:20:04 UTC
    Quick question: is the WH map chartable through in-character means? (is there a way of finding out the distance between systems for example?)

    If not then the WH map could very much be the result of a lazy copypasting dev not worrying about the positions. If I were to make a collection of stars randomly I would pretty much do the same: make a blob, copy paste the thing around the canvas resulting in a somewhat-spirally pattern. Result would then have no IC implications whatsoever.
    Cave Lord
    Workers' Compensation
    Sukyoko-Moussa Ltd.
    #7 - 2011-10-22 18:14:19 UTC
    As far as I know, the only way to figure out positions in-game is to have 2 people in separate WH's, and then there's some way of seeing how far apart you are. (I don't know details as I've never done this myself).

    It does very much seem like there isn't any correlation between WH classes and anything in k-space.

    Worth a shot though!
    Calathea Sata
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #8 - 2011-10-24 22:34:27 UTC
    Something to ponder on.

    1 W-space systems with hour hands at their suns (e.g. J100001 points at 10 o'clock and 1 second like a normal clock)
    2 Extended hour hands, notice the class 6 region R30 at the bottom left gets the least pointed to
    3 Close up of R30

    Not sure what it means.
    Calathea Sata
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #9 - 2011-10-24 22:40:33 UTC
    Actually it might not mean anything. It's getting too complicated to be meant to be decipherable.
    Calathea Sata
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #10 - 2011-10-24 22:48:47 UTC
    At least now we know the J number is irrelevant. I think in order to map the WH we just need to record where the WH goes to and comes from.

    W-space is made up of statics and randoms. We know the outbound statics of regions. If we camp in a region and record the same statics destinations we will have the inbound data. That way we will have a chance-based table of WH connections. The random spawn WHs might be a bit tricky to rationalize.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    Actually I'm sure many have been doing this for some time. We can either do our own recordings, or pool the data from other people. I think many websites are actually dedicated for this job.

    I think it is a very difficult task if not impossible to know the exact nature of the WH connections because of the randomness in their mechanisms.
    Cave Lord
    Workers' Compensation
    Sukyoko-Moussa Ltd.
    #11 - 2011-10-25 05:25:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cave Lord
    Excellent picture. I do like pictures, even though I have *no* clue how people make them.

    Here's me shooting in the dark again:
    Imagine a cone wrapped around the pointers in that picture, say, 30 degrees. Is it possible the portal will randomly select WH's that the cone touches, WH to WH? For example, some WH's will *never* ever lead to C6 space?

    *edit*
    Calathea Sata, any thoughts on the radial directions on sleeper stations and the apotheosis in relation to the maps and your previous picture?
    */edit*
    _____________________________
    Opinion:
    I'm going to be brutally honest. I think WH tracing (mapping where they go, etc) will only yield the algorithm used to spawn WH's. I'm not entirely sure that's what in-game prophecies and hints meant by capsuleers someday understanding the WH network. :P

    If we are to drive the storyline forward, it seems to me we have to keep participating in WH activities and bringing stuff into empire space - specifically to corporations having to do with the scientist who went rogue and set up his own research lab, or something like that. I'll have to dig up the references at a later time.
    _____________________________
    Thoughts?


    Also, Calathea Sata, thanks for participating :) you seem to know a heck of a lot more or have access to resources that I may not be aware of. Is there any way I can participate more in this sort of thing?

    -Cave
    Calathea Sata
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #12 - 2011-10-25 10:35:38 UTC
    Cone: Nope. I don't think it will be anything graphical like that. http://www.staticmapper.com/index.php?region=Unknown%20%28R28%29 Staticmapper has tables of static outbound WHs, and you can notice that for example R28 only has one type of static. Actually many of the C5 regions also have only one type of static. So if the hour hands actually mean anything they will have a noticible difference in their directions from the different C5 regions (R24 to R29). But they don't.

    Radials: I actually think it is a coincidence. Radial patterns is a common thing... just like rectangles or 45 degree angles... If anything it has the notions of "a central point" and "circling around a central point" and "radiating out or in to a central point". Again, I think it's nothing special. But I wouldn't be suprised if they are somehow related as well.

    Human mind looks for the slightest hint of similarity if they are trying to connect two things but it is dangerous because you need to be aware that sometimes you only see it because you look for it. Like looking for anything in a random pattern. Like looking for shapes in clouds. It doesn't mean it actually has anything to do with X if it looks like X.

    WH mapping algorithm: I thought that is exactly the thing we are looking for. An equation or a proven theory, something that can predict new WHs to a degree of certainty. That is how I understood "understanding the WH network". I think we are already on our way because we have many static WHs already.

    Driving storyline: I don't think there is anything already in-game (WH structures or messages etc) that hasn't been discovered or triggered. So perhaps the only way to go is to RP it with Tukoss :D

    Resources: I don't have anything that isn't already publicly avaliable. I am not currently active in this actually. But if you want to participate, I think you can make a table of the W-space regions using that table from staticmapper so we can have a nice overview of the entire W-space and their statics. Or maybe start caping in a WH system and recording where one static WH goes to over many days. But I'm not any authority in this area. I don't know how many are doing the same actually.

    No need to thank me for participating because it is a common interest.
    Calathea Sata
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #13 - 2011-10-25 10:44:13 UTC
    To make that picture I used Grasshopper btw. For the first time.
    Calathea Sata
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #14 - 2011-10-27 00:27:27 UTC
    Wormhole systems J-hours overview

    Times on a clock face.

    Top to bottom:
    AM hours
    PM hours
    All hours
    Calathea Sata
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #15 - 2011-10-27 00:56:25 UTC
    Wyke Mossari
    Staner Industries
    #16 - 2011-10-27 09:26:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Wyke Mossari
    Calathea Sata wrote:
    Something to ponder on.

    1 W-space systems with hour hands at their suns (e.g. J100001 points at 10 o'clock and 1 second like a normal clock)
    2 Extended hour hands, notice the class 6 region R30 at the bottom left gets the least pointed to
    3 Close up of R30

    Not sure what it means.


    Interesting, this diagram reinforce the findings in the old Wormhole Mapping thread. Though I have question, are these plots based these on a 12hour or 24 hour clock ? e.g. 12hour = 360 degrees or 24 hours = 360 degrees. (edit, I really should have read the whole thread before responding Oops)

    Consider a Einstein Minkowski light cone, now consider the hyperplane of space is actually projected on to a Riemann surface and it is easy to see why only some directions may actually be valid. Now consider what would happen should the hyperplane or torus be rotating.
    Calathea Sata
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #17 - 2011-10-28 06:42:03 UTC
    Calathea Sata
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #18 - 2011-10-28 07:05:32 UTC
    http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/323/wh24hourhands.png

    24 hour hands.

    Nothing noteworthy even if direction is flipped 180 degrees.

    Data irrelevant.
    Calathea Sata
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #19 - 2011-10-28 07:11:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Calathea Sata
    http://eve-files.com/dl/248779

    Feel free to make use of the data I have. In excel format. It's all from datadump plus a few new columns I've put in.


    Edit: a point of note: the Y and Z coordinates need to be negative'd to be correct in my case so watch out.
    Cave Lord
    Workers' Compensation
    Sukyoko-Moussa Ltd.
    #20 - 2011-10-28 23:29:35 UTC
    Calathea Sata wrote:
    http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/2295/fromnewedentoanoikis.png

    Where is Anoikis?



    We may start to piece together an answer soon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kBAWayqELU
    I can only hope that these nebulae will also be present in WH space.
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