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Farmers and FW: throwing them off the castle wall

Author
Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#1 - 2013-01-13 09:02:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Merdaneth
About Exchanging Time
Yesterday I spent about one hour chasing off farmers. They were usually flying frigates with a minimum of two warp core stabilizers. It usually went like this: I warp in, they warp off to the next plex. I chase them to the next plex, they warp to the first plex (and so on). Or we both sit inside a plex and our efforts countered each other.

The irony of this is of course: I'm not hurting their efforts by trying to run them off. I'm just exchanging my time for theirs. I can run off farmers all day long, the net effect on the warzone will be zero.

Obviously, I am the stronger party in this conflict, why can't I turn that strength into an advantage for my side? Does it not make sense that the superior party, the party that takes more risk, should receive more rewards. Rewards in terms of isk and in terms of contesting the warzone?

If this is not true, then the war will turn into a game of man-hours. The side who spends the most hours will win, and not the one who has the superior firepower, superior strategy, superior logistics or who puts more on the line. That is wrong.

This point is exacerbated in fleets. A fleet of three trying to chase off single farmer is a waste of time. They will spent three minutes for the same effect on the warzone as a farmer has in one minute. I don't think chasing off a single hostile with two or more people should always be a waste of time.

The Castle Metaphor
If you catch someone attacking your castle and he has almost climbed your wall when you throw him off, he has to start at the bottom again. In FW the attacker can return to the top of the wall immediately, unless you guard your wall for as long a time as he has been climbing. But of course, if you do stay on that wall to guard it, the attacker will simply climb another unguarded wall, and you'll be running from wall to wall, never really stopping the progress of the attacker.

I propose that we can throw an attacker off the wall and make him start again at the bottom, as is proper when you defend your castle.

Possible solutions
There should be consequences of warping out of a plex. I have two flavors of solution, but no doubt others can think of good ones too:

1. The timer is immediately reset to its neutral state if an opposing side is alone in the plex
If you are attacking, and you invested 13 minutes into a 15 minute timer, and you are run off, then you the timer resets and when you return, you'll again need 15 minutes to capture the plex. This way someone chasing off a farmer has actually gained 13 minutes time for his faction, for a 1 minute investment (the warp to the plex). He can chose to stay and invest 15 minutes of his time to run the timer all the way down and take the plex for his side, or he can move on chasing others out of plexes: you've thrown the attacker off the wall.

2. The timer begins to count down to a neutral state as soon as neither side is in the plex
This is a slightly less extreme version of 1. It means that a plex will slowly revert to the neutral state if you leave after chasing off the attacker, which means the attacker can return and salvage some of his invested time. In the case of the example chasing a farmer given above, this will only give you an advantage if the farmer had run down the timers a bit to begin with. If it takes a minute to warp to and go into a new plex, you'll win an extra minute on them for each minute you spend chasing.

P.S. I don't mind farmers. I don't mind them affecting the warzone. I even don't mind frigates with WCS still being able to capture plexes. This is EVE after all. I simply think the risk-reward for farmers should be more balanced. Farmers have their own roles in EVE, I just think the extentof which stabbed, noob frig alt farmers affect the warzone is too large at the moment. Large due to chosen plex mechanics.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Pen Is Out
#2 - 2013-01-13 09:07:38 UTC
This is in CCP's backlog, and our CSM representative Hans has been pushing this pretty hard. It should come soon.
Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy
PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
#3 - 2013-01-13 09:09:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Casidy
"The timer is immediately reset to its neutral state if an opposing side is alone in the plex"

you mean the owning faction right? Cuz that would make it impossible to ever take anything...

-edit- I think I get what you're going for, but you could just create area denial by never fighting if what you suggested was the case.

.

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#4 - 2013-01-13 09:15:14 UTC
Cat Casidy wrote:
"The timer is immediately reset to its neutral state if an opposing side is alone in the plex"

you mean the owning faction right?


No, if you defend (with noob alts) and an attacker from the opposing faction comes in, your defense is wasted. If a neutral comes in: no problem.

We don't only have this issue with attackers, we have the same issue with people using unskilled alts in noob ships to defend their home systems. If you want to attack or defend systems, you'll better be prepared to fight. If you don't want (or cannot fight) you'd better defend or attack when nobody is paying attention.
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#5 - 2013-01-13 09:25:20 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:

The Castle Metaphor
If you catch someone attacking your castle and he has almost climbed your wall when you throw him off, he has to start at the bottom again. In FW the attacker can return to the top of the wall immediately, unless you guard your wall for as long a time as he has been climbing. But of course, if you do stay on that wall to guard it, the attacker will simply climb another unguarded wall, and you'll be running from wall to wall, never really stopping the progress of the attacker.


What really happens: I spot you (dscan), and I hide before you can throw me off. Then I continue once it's clear (decloak). Throwing me off would be podding me back to my home station, so I have to start the journey back to my farming ground/castle wall again.

Also currently the guards of Amarr castles are sitting in tavern (station), or just sleeping at post. They gather once a week and shout at each other angrily (forums) about the peasants climbing all their walls (farmers). They also think that by gathering into big patrols (fleets), and then carefully avoiding enemy castles (why arent Amarr fleets camping Isbra/Eszur/etc. stations?) they can somehow magically defeat those peasants climbing on their walls (roaming). They are all too lazy to actually be castle guards (playing FW). And since its a strange country with no kings who could boot them, or nobles to begin with, the real question is: why aren't these lazy guards take up the noble profession of highwayman, if they hate guarding those bloody castles so much? (quit FW, and go full pirate)

Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy
PERCUSSIVE PIZZA TIME DIPLOMACY
#6 - 2013-01-13 09:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Casidy
Fair enough, but what abut he the people who are acutually not alts and plexing for control? I think a version of the idea would be if a person from the controlling side chases out the farmer or lone plexer that resets it. It would mean a lone firgate trying to plex would actually get a fight and the idiot alt would get run out and see all his work tossed in the trash.

-edit- So there's a bunch of farmers roaming around some of your space, you warp up to the plex, chase it off, stay there for like 20 secs or so, the plex resets, you see he's opened another, pop over there repeat. it's still about you taking action and the farmers wouls never be able to keepup if you actively defending. im fairly drun know so maybe it's a terrible idea.

.

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#7 - 2013-01-13 09:45:06 UTC
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:

What really happens: I spot you (dscan), and I hide before you can throw me off. Then I continue once it's clear (decloak). Throwing me off would be podding me back to my home station, so I have to start the journey back to my farming ground/castle wall again.


Well, your guys is not hidden, he's clearly visible, people can see him leaving the plex. In fact, your guy would go into another plex after leaving the first, you would effectively be scaling a second wall while at the same time remaining hidden on the first wall if we use your analogy. I think you are making a poor analogy here.

Cynthia, I know you love your plexing alts and have perfected the Bantam/alt plex/deplex to an artform, but you are intelligent enough to see reason here, even though you stand to lose a lot (those billions you earn with those alts) if my proposed change comes through.

Cynthia Nezmor wrote:

Also currently the guards of Amarr castles are sitting in tavern (station), or just sleeping at post. They gather once a week and shout at each other angrily (forums) about the peasants climbing all their walls (farmers).


You realize of course that the whole point of guards is not that you need one skilled guard for each unskilled attacker? My point before the analogy was: FW capture system is not good when primarly time invested counts, when low-skilled alt-hours spent (like you do) is an important factor in capturing systems.

About the lazy guards, I'll come to that point in a separate post, since I think its a separate issue.

Merdaneth
Angel Wing.
#8 - 2013-01-13 09:51:09 UTC
Cat Casidy wrote:
Fair enough, but what abut he the people who are acutually not alts and plexing for control? I think a version of the idea would be if a person from the controlling side chases out the farmer or lone plexer that resets it. It would mean a lone firgate trying to plex would actually get a fight and the idiot alt would get run out and see all his work tossed in the trash.

-edit- So there's a bunch of farmers roaming around some of your space, you warp up to the plex, chase it off, stay there for like 20 secs or so, the plex resets, you see he's opened another, pop over there repeat. it's still about you taking action and the farmers wouls never be able to keepup if you actively defending. im fairly drun know so maybe it's a terrible idea.


Let me explain it this way: if the Gallente Federation ask you to guard a weak section of their wall for 15 minutes, and 6 minutes into your guard duty, a hostile is beginning to climb the wall. If you run off as he is climbing, your 6 minute guard duty is wasted. He still needs to climb the entire wall, so if you come back with your friends within 15 minutes, you can still throw him off.

It is insane to reward defenders who run as soon as any attack occurs. Such guardsmen should not receive pay, nor should their services have any effect on the security of the castle.

Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#9 - 2013-01-13 10:43:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cynthia Nezmor
Merdaneth wrote:
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:

What really happens: I spot you (dscan), and I hide before you can throw me off. Then I continue once it's clear (decloak). Throwing me off would be podding me back to my home station, so I have to start the journey back to my farming ground/castle wall again.


Well, your guys is not hidden, he's clearly visible, people can see him leaving the plex. In fact, your guy would go into another plex after leaving the first, you would effectively be scaling a second wall while at the same time remaining hidden on the first wall if we use your analogy. I think you are making a poor analogy here.

Cynthia, I know you love your plexing alts and have perfected the Bantam/alt plex/deplex to an artform, but you are intelligent enough to see reason here, even though you stand to lose a lot (those billions you earn with those alts) if my proposed change comes through.


No, I will not. I was running 4 plexes with 4 characters in the ancient days when according to the likes of Cearain (spelling probably wrong sorry) and Veshta Yoshida it was impossible to solo a plex.
And no, I hate the fact that I need those alts, because out of the 200 players online, 190 wants to sit in station, with dozens of them actually being payed by the enemy. You know exactly who are the ones in Amarr Militia who never had problems with casually fleeting up with the minmatar, or being in same channels as them, talking blatant lies about those who are actually willing to fight.
Old mechanics were favouring people like me, because it took skill to clear a plex efficiently, the ragtag band of 3 SFIs and 2 Rifters were doing 1/4th of what I was doing.

Merdaneth wrote:

Cynthia Nezmor wrote:

Also currently the guards of Amarr castles are sitting in tavern (station), or just sleeping at post. They gather once a week and shout at each other angrily (forums) about the peasants climbing all their walls (farmers).


You realize of course that the whole point of guards is not that you need one skilled guard for each unskilled attacker? My point before the analogy was: FW capture system is not good when primarly time invested counts, when low-skilled alt-hours spent (like you do) is an important factor in capturing systems.

About the lazy guards, I'll come to that point in a separate post, since I think its a separate issue.



A skilled player can chase away farmers from multiple systems easily. Or plex multiple systems easily. Problem is you dont want to adapt to the situation (hint: if you make my life real miserable, I will not farm your systems, I will just go to better farming grounds), you want the game to be adapted to suit your needs. No offense, but for example limiting yourself to 1 account when you are facing an enemy that massively outnumbers you is sort of giving up. Those dplexing alts can pay for themselves via PLEX, and if the first 600 mil is the problem, I would gladly loan it for you.

And while I was writing all this, I killed a farmer and chased away another 2. http://24fl.killmail.org/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15888800
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#10 - 2013-01-13 10:56:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
The 'reset' is too extreme, would reverse the the problem and give defensive work the benefit of unlimited alts in mediocre frigs .. just run 2-3 around to insure that the lone attacking alt runs -> reset plex -> park one.

The autorun timer, as your original idea all those years ago called for (#2), is much more sensible and in tune with what is actually happening ..
To use the wall analogy: Guard captain (defensive plexer) patrols the wall, when an enemy tries to scale it (attacking plexer) he coordinates the defence and throws him off but leaves securing the section to the grunts/guards (NPC's) stationed there.

If nothing else changes (rats are too damn weak!), then I'd have the defensive timer run at twice the speed when the 'guard captain' is around and regular speed when he leaves. Reduce the defensive LP if wanted.

We want to create an environment where attacking means committing capable/adequate forces or see an offensive grind to a halt .. we want the plex fights. Benefits for capturing a system (possible 6 points of WZC) more than makes up for that requirement and that is before the e-peen value of actually having done something other than let slip the alts-of-war.
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
....

Do you honestly consider the solution to the might-aswell-be-gunless alts to be for the opponent to spam similar alts to counter them? Surely you can see that when "more of X to counter X" makes for very tedious gameplay.
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#11 - 2013-01-13 11:25:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Cynthia Nezmor
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
To use the wall analogy: Guard captain (defensive plexer) patrols the wall, when an enemy tries to scale it (attacking plexer) he coordinates the defence and throws him off but leaves securing the section to the grunts/guards (NPC's) stationed there.

If nothing else changes (rats are too damn weak!), then I'd have the defensive timer run at twice the speed when the 'guard captain' is around and regular speed when he leaves. Reduce the defensive LP if wanted.
.


Those grunts should be the new players. When I joined FW, I asked what should I do. I was told to go run some defensive plexes. So I did. I died, I had many crazy ideas, I died again and again. But I took plexes, and guess what? I was happy that no matter how little it is, my contributions counts a bit. I still remember that feeling of "wow, I did something in lowsec and I didnt die!". Nowadays people join and want to know the fastest way for farming for a new titan, or get 758 kills per month.


Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Do you honestly consider the solution to the might-aswell-be-gunless alts to be for the opponent to spam similar alts to counter them? Surely you can see that when "more of X to counter X" makes for very tedious gameplay.


When I was living in Ostingele, there were no farming around us. We made their life so miserable, they went to farm elsewhere. One of us were running down timers, while other was killing the "pirate" and "goon\AAA\TEST\whatever" main of the farmer. Third player was camping the stargate, and they were dying by the dozens, she even managed to get top killer of the militia for a few days. Speaking of which when were you in top 10 killers of your own militia last time, Veshta? I am already sick and tired of seeing my own fits used against me, or dying to the fleet compositions that were stolen from us after they managed to bring 30 to fight 6 guys. I wont tell all the tricks, but there are a lot of them. Obviously not all of us can fly 4 combat characters, or put 8 bombers into the right place, but even you could make a dplexing alt too. Thats the easiest solution, so thats what I will tell to people.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#12 - 2013-01-13 11:48:29 UTC
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
Those grunts should be the new players....

In the real world with a command structure in place, sure. But in a game where everyone pays to play the idea of that kind of slavery is rather draconian. Besides, CCP has said repeatedly that they will no dictate how/what/why people play the game and I'd say (have for a long time) that the whole defensive plexing part of FW is a forced mode of play .. especially now that we have docking denial and massive benefits for offensive plexing.
Were timer to be accelerated with a defender present then the idea of leaving a man (read: nublet) behind to secure it would not be a big deal, hell I'd probably volunteer if no one else stepped forward .. did that plenty when the only LP around was from missions requiring a bazillion jumps through hostile space.
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
When I was living in Ostingele...

Why would I aspire to be top-killer when those are more often than not blob-monkeys, campers or worse? I generally avoid both friendly and hostile booster gangs because the mechanic is broken, I avoid blobs because fights are generally rather boring (ganks) and I don't camp anything other than plex buttons ..
I am of the conviction that if any change is to be had, someone has to be the first to show that the world still turns after said change .. or to put it another way, I'd rather spend my time debating changes than to exploit the loopholes that are the cause of the debate.

And yes I could make an alt, of course I could, but I won't .. see above. Farmers must go.

Morality. Don't care if I am alone Big smile
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#13 - 2013-01-13 14:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lipbite
As I understood FW farming is just 50-60mill per hour i.e. sucks compared to WH or null ratting. And you are trying to make it even less profitable via various time sinks. Well, good luck making your part of sandbox even less attractive than it is now!
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#14 - 2013-01-13 14:30:40 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
Those grunts should be the new players....

In the real world with a command structure in place, sure. But in a game where everyone pays to play the idea of that kind of slavery is rather draconian. Besides, CCP has said repeatedly that they will no dictate how/what/why people play the game and I'd say (have for a long time) that the whole defensive plexing part of FW is a forced mode of play .. especially now that we have docking denial and massive benefits for offensive plexing.
Were timer to be accelerated with a defender present then the idea of leaving a man (read: nublet) behind to secure it would not be a big deal, hell I'd probably volunteer if no one else stepped forward .. did that plenty when the only LP around was from missions requiring a bazillion jumps through hostile space.



Noobie cant do anything else, you cant send him to oplex as he will just die. Point is when people join, they dont get told anymore to run plexes, they get told to join a corp and be the 75th "blob-monkey" on km.Its not dictating them what to do, its telling them what they CAN do.

Veshta Yoshida wrote:

Cynthia Nezmor wrote:
When I was living in Ostingele...

Why would I aspire to be top-killer when those are more often than not blob-monkeys, campers or worse? I generally avoid both friendly and hostile booster gangs because the mechanic is broken, I avoid blobs because fights are generally rather boring (ganks) and I don't camp anything other than plex buttons ..
I am of the conviction that if any change is to be had, someone has to be the first to show that the world still turns after said change .. or to put it another way, I'd rather spend my time debating changes than to exploit the loopholes that are the cause of the debate.

And yes I could make an alt, of course I could, but I won't .. see above. Farmers must go.

Morality. Don't care if I am alone Big smile


Did you enlist to participate in a war, or not? Morality is not using exploits and dirty tricks, even if your enemy uses them against you. I would say refusing to put a little effort into FW is much more immoral, as there are hundreds of players who count on you while they cant plex systems. All the players on the other side of either the warzone, fighting, or the world, away from their computers, while you let the enemy gain ground with your bad attitude.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#15 - 2013-01-13 14:31:21 UTC
Eve is alive because it never catered to the lowest denominator. Popularity is only a metric one should be concerned about in the short term when building interest or if one lives on Faecesbook™ .. lessening FW's attraction for farmers, who already outnumber all other groups by a factor of ;insert double digit;, by increasing risk will be a good thing.

Once risk/reward is sorted and advantage shifted to be in favour of pew'ers, you can tweak numbers upwards to bring in more people .. that intake will then have the "proper' ratio.

Pointless argument though as FW has always had much more interest than it should have had, reason probably being that pew elsewhere had become gangrenous, but what started out with a majority population of pew'ers has been reversed to the detriment of Eve as a whole (if everyone can afford anything ...).
SeaSaw
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-01-13 15:48:03 UTC  |  Edited by: SeaSaw
Lipbite wrote:
As I understood FW farming is just 50-60mill per hour i.e. sucks compared to WH or null ratting. And you are trying to make it even less profitable via various time sinks. Well, good luck making your part of sandbox even less attractive than it is now!


Good Lipbite;

I have to agree. While it might be dull to play hunt the wumpus from novice plex to small plex and back again--at least you know for sure where you can find someone to kill--if only you knew how or had a buddy to help you.

Until the new FW rules came along, I could never find any kind of solo fights. Now in Sisiede, somebody tries to kill me every 10 minutes. Maybe it is not completely fair to who wins in FW but it gives small pirate gangs plenty to eat, and lots of slippery victims to chase.

your humble servent
SeaSaw
Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2013-01-13 16:00:38 UTC
To the OP +1, excellent post.

The only small thing I would like to add is that you should not be able to enter a plex if you have WCS or a cloak fitted.


Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#18 - 2013-01-13 16:01:50 UTC
Merdaneth wrote:
Farmers



Hey I see that the Galentte farmers have moved to your boarders now.. Perhaps Hans can help you guys, or better yet just forget about FW for anything more than "Fourm Wars" because in game is not worth fighting over anymore. You simply can't beat the numbers of farmers.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#19 - 2013-01-13 16:04:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
chatgris wrote:
This is in CCP's backlog, and our CSM representative Hans has been pushing this pretty hard. It should come soon.


Sure it is and I'm sure Han's is also working hard on any suggestions for fixes.. I mean he's managed to visit and propose his ideas to us on the forums so often after his free trip to Iceland. I mean I feel so informed as he's done such a great job..

Oh wait it's not re-election time, I guess it will be awhile til he posts wont it.. Roll
Cynthia Nezmor
Nezmor's Golden Griffins
#20 - 2013-01-13 16:50:22 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Merdaneth wrote:
Farmers



Hey I see that the Galentte farmers have moved to your boarders now.. Perhaps Hans can help you guys, or better yet just forget about FW for anything more than "Fourm Wars" because in game is not worth fighting over anymore. You simply can't beat the numbers of farmers.


I dunno.. If I could get all the Amarr militia Forum Warriors to do half of what I do, I think at least we could put up a real fight for once.
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