Warfare & Tactics

from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/01/nerf-t1-logistics.html

The composition of fleet fights in lowsec has changed radically since Retribution was released. I'm not so sure for the better.

Before December 4th, flying with logistics was a rarity. Something done occasionally to mix things up, to try something new. Fweddit experimented with a Circlejerk doctrine involving Drakes. We had some success with it, but it was a specialty doctrine, useful only in particular situations.

I can count on one hand the number of times I've been in logistic fleets since I joined faction warfare until the release of Retribution. Nearly every fleet I've flown in since Retribution has had a contingent of logistic ships.

With the release of Retribution, any fleet over 15 ships, and logistics has become a necessity. FCs won't undock a mid- to large-sized fleet without logistics. If your logistics pilots aren't online, then you don't undock. And even if you have the logistics pilots available, there's still some grumbling. People just don't seem to enjoy flying logistics. People are sucking it up, climbing into their Augorors because the fleet won't undock otherwise.

Doctrines pre-Retribution barely paid any attention to logi. Doctrines post-Retribution have logi fits built into them.

Those days of just undocking with 15-20 people, heading out on a roam, are over. Now it's all about making sure you have the right fleet comp before an undock is even callled. It requires more planning, more of the right people with the right skills.

Ad hoc fleets, spontaneous roams. A thing of the past. And that makes me sad. Faction warfare has always been improvisational to some degree, and that's been lost with the advent of powerful T1 logistic cruisers. Now, if you don't have the logi, you don't fly. You can't compete in fights without it. As a result, doctrines have all started to look the same. The fights have started to look the same. Stalemates are becoming more commonplace.

I'm not sure the solution. Or if there should be a solution. It's hard to call the logistic changes bad, but neither have they been good for faction warfare. All I know, is that fighting in lowsec has changed, and it doesn't feel like it's changed for the better. Something crucial has been lost. And it feels like a shame.

Nerfbat is bad mmk

These changes have made the ships finally useful. Can we just enjoy ccp making a thing better for once.

its poetic he wouldnt be himself if he weasnt crying about something ..... the t1 logi gives t2 logi pilots of the future something to learn there trade in for little expense

The Gallente/Caldari warzone, the fights are made up of more blingy ships. Stricter doctrines. The expense of the ships demands tighter doctrines. You guys simply fly more expensive ships on average. T3 cruisers was pretty normal to see in our time up there.

Our warzone, you don't see ships with values over 100M ISK lost often. T3 strat cruisers in a fleet? Very uncommon, doesn't matter what side of the war you're on.

I'm sure we'll all adapt ... but one of the great things about our warzone was the ad hoc nature of roams. Kitchen sink fleets were common on both sides of the war. The days of the kitchen sink fleet are over now. You can't throw together a quick kitchen sink fleet when logi is also necessary. You need stricter fleet doctrine.

I find this kind of ironic.

Why aren't you complaining that your T3 boosting Legion and Loki are neccessary to go on a roam with your 30-40+ blob of T1 armour cruisers? You never leave them at home. Yet it is the fault of T1 logi cruisers that you don't get fights? That minmatar won't engage you because it's just too stupidly hard to, eg, snipe off your small ships due to zomg 7km/s slashers with the sig radius of Dan Carter murray's shrunken testes? That Fweddit rolling a giant blob with 2 x T3 boosters and 7 Augorors is somehow something we want to run into ad-hoc for "good fights"?

The solution to this lies in your own court, dude. Max your gangs at 10 members. Take 4 gangs of 10 frigates or cruisers, including 2 logis, leave your legion AND your loki at home, and roam about. You may find people more willing to engage you because - and this is shocking - not everyone in Minmatar rolls 2 x T3 boosters and logi for every fight.

Your complaints have nothing to do with game design, and everything to do with your immature nerd herd of teenagers bereft of skill or initiative glomming together and spamming local like idiots.

In short: ahahahaha.

This concerns logistics in general, the easy of getting into logistics has just made it more visible. In small gangs (up to 15 pilots) the inclusion of several logi's on the enemy side ensures that you either get a comparable number of logi's instead, or fit especially to defeat the logi's. If you bring a kitchen sink fleet of comparable size, you'll just get destroyed without any kills to show for it.

Which is the main issue. The chaos of kitchen sink fleets can be fun, and even if they die horribly, the knowledge of taking a few hostiles with them to the grave is what often makes people repeat them. That is not possible with logi's. Bring a fleet with 4 cruisers and 4 logi's, you know you have to blob them to get any kills even.

As I've said so many times, if the optimal counter in a game to X is more of X, then its a game design flaw. This is true for T3 OGB's, but also true for T1 Logi's. If Logi's are that good in cruiser fleets, you will indeed see cruiser fleets without them die out.

Note: I don't maintain that Logi's cannot be countered in many ways, merely saying that the easiest and cheapest way of countering is bringing your own.

Logi one one side needs more logi on the other side as a counter. Thus there's little in the way of ingenuity in fleet composition. It's logistics escalation. That doesn't strike me as great design.

who doesnt like flying logi in a fleet? only KM whores thats who

logi is the most intense. nerv wrecking scaning for broadcast. watching for yellowboxing and jams. reading your watch list. keeping your cap chain up when your logi takes a hit and struggling to keep your friends alive


in large fleets logi is one of the most fun things you can fly.... in fatal when we have a 20 man roam we have to tell people no. you cant fly logi today. we already have 7!

when half your logi are damped down to 10.2km lock range by 3-4 cheap maulus's sending your cap chain to nothing and not able to lock to give reps


thats how you counter logi

damps also stop jams.... that cheap mwd cap stable trip damos maulus cost you 12mill isk and puts the falcon on field to a 17km lock range. dont worry falcon. get close and snuggle with our fleet