These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

>75% & <100% Max Speed / Pseudo Warp Question

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tzel Mayon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-01-08 19:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD LackOfFaith
Hello! Recently, I submitted a petition to which a GM replied. I assume that for brevity the GM probably simplified things for me and I am probably not understanding correctly. So, the intent of this post is to get clarification.

In the GM's response, he informed me that the reason that I lost my Abaddon in a particular level IV was because I was webbed while I was warping out, (entering "pseudo warp" where my warp bar is full and states "warping" and just hangs there for a very long time).


~Snip.~ Quoting GM communication directly is not allowed. --ISD LackOfFaith

The GM mentioned that I could have deactivated/unfit armor plates, (which I had none of), to decrease the mass of my ship, to allow me to slow down faster).

As I have encountered this situation multiple times, I am trying to determine an appropriate counter... Apparently, player pirates have also used this tactic to destroy large freighters--webbing them right before/during the time they enter warp, right above their maximum speed, (to hold them in pseudo warp for a long time).

Since I don't often run with plates, but rather use resistance hardeners, etc,

Questions:
1. Would simply, "aligning to a new destination", allow me to slow down my ship fast enough to reinitiate warp? Is "stop ship" faster?
2. Doesn't the MWD/Cloak trick allow people to warp while over 100% of their maximum speed? Is the upper limit really 100%? or more like 300%?
3. Doesn't insta-undocking get you over 100%?

Also, the "under 100% max speed to enter warp" requirement seems kind of arbitrary. Is there any way to petition to have this removed? (Other ships over my max speed can still enter warp, etc). Why does this constraint exist?

Regards,
"Stuck often by last moment webifiers while trying to warp out in level IVs and Epic Arc Missions."
Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#2 - 2013-01-08 20:31:42 UTC
always when you try to escape do not press warp until you have alignment and correct speed to warp.
Morgan Torry
Arma Purgatorium
#3 - 2013-01-08 22:42:18 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
always when you try to escape do not press warp until you have alignment and correct speed to warp.


Excellent rule of thumb. Never just mash "WARP TO" on your overview...wait until your align is done, ensure all points are killed or deactived, then hit warp to 0. The whole time you should be at warp speed and aligned.

Arma Purgatorium - What is Podded May Never Die
Rajere
Vicious Inc
#4 - 2013-01-09 01:30:26 UTC
Tzel Mayon wrote:
Apparently, player pirates use this tactic to destroy large freighters--webbing them right before/during the time they enter warp, right above their maximum speed, (to hold them in pseudo warp for a long time).


no
Tzel Mayon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-01-09 01:44:12 UTC
Morgan Torry wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
always when you try to escape do not press warp until you have alignment and correct speed to warp.


Excellent rule of thumb. Never just mash "WARP TO" on your overview...wait until your align is done, ensure all points are killed or deactivated, then hit warp to 0. The whole time you should be at warp speed and aligned.



I am not certain this applies in these cases, as I was already aligned, and the warp gauge was filled with blue and stated "warping". Unless somehow I got unaligned. But I am always aligned before I warp.
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-01-09 01:57:53 UTC
Rajere wrote:
Tzel Mayon wrote:
Apparently, player pirates use this tactic to destroy large freighters--webbing them right before/during the time they enter warp, right above their maximum speed, (to hold them in pseudo warp for a long time).


no


This made me chuckle
Morgan Torry
Arma Purgatorium
#7 - 2013-01-09 04:37:23 UTC
Tzel Mayon wrote:
Morgan Torry wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
always when you try to escape do not press warp until you have alignment and correct speed to warp.


Excellent rule of thumb. Never just mash "WARP TO" on your overview...wait until your align is done, ensure all points are killed or deactivated, then hit warp to 0. The whole time you should be at warp speed and aligned.



I am not certain this applies in these cases, as I was already aligned, and the warp gauge was filled with blue and stated "warping". Unless somehow I got unaligned. But I am always aligned before I warp.


Well, if you're ever wondering what's taking so long and you're aligned:

1. Ctrl + Spacebar (little black box should notify you of ship stopping)
2. Immediately, Warp-to location (hear the "Warp Drive, Active")
3. Watch yourself go into warp

More than likely, something was overlooked.

Arma Purgatorium - What is Podded May Never Die
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#8 - 2013-01-09 05:18:08 UTC
Hi there. Edited the OP for breaching this forum rule:

Quote:
9. Private communication between the Game Masters, Eve Team members, moderators and administrators of the forum and the forum users is not to be made public on these forums or by any other venue.
You are not permitted to publicize any private correspondence (including petitions) received from any of the aforementioned.


You can feel free to paraphrase it, but direct quoting of conversations you have with any of the above is not allowed.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#9 - 2013-01-09 05:22:11 UTC
Anyway, on topic... The best way you can counter this is just by trying to stay aligned, and starting to warp sooner as you get in trouble. Aligning to something else doesn't really help (it just adds changing direction on top of changing speed so far as what your ship has to do).

Staying still might help if you definitely expect to be über-webbed, since accelerating from 0 m/s to 10 m/s (or whatever your webbed top speed is) would be faster than decelerating from 500 m/s to 10 m/s. However, this is only true for a few seconds after you get webbed, when you're slowing down anyway. Basically, if you pull it off right, it might help, but in the general case it probably just hurts you, since staying still hurts your tank.

Good luck!

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.
Ohishi
Apocalypse Reign
#10 - 2013-01-09 08:01:32 UTC
I believe this is a glitch and instead of fixing it CCP just made up a BS answer for you that was ambiguous at best so that you rattle it around in your head and then give up on it so as not to ruffle too many feathers. They don't know why sometimes a ship that is webbed will never warp and therefore just try to sweep it under a rug so they don't have to worry about fixing it.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-01-09 10:46:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Vera Algaert
Ohishi wrote:
I believe this is a glitch and instead of fixing it CCP just made up a BS answer for you that was ambiguous at best so that you rattle it around in your head and then give up on it so as not to ruffle too many feathers. They don't know why sometimes a ship that is webbed will never warp and therefore just try to sweep it under a rug so they don't have to worry about fixing it.

pretty much this.

if I understand OP correctly he is not complaining that it takes a long time to align when webbed but has encountered the (relatively well known) "you are technically in warp, Ctrl+Space does not work, yet you will never warp away" issue.

.
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#12 - 2013-01-09 11:01:47 UTC
This is a petitionable exploit if a player does it. Though sounds to me if it happens from a rat you're SOL.

The moar you cry the less you pee
Smegskull
Abh Academy
Abh Alliance
#13 - 2013-01-09 19:14:30 UTC
ISD LackOfFaith wrote:
Hi there. Edited the OP for breaching this forum rule:

Quote:
9. Private communication between the Game Masters, Eve Team members, moderators and administrators of the forum and the forum users is not to be made public on these forums or by any other venue.
You are not permitted to publicize any private correspondence (including petitions) received from any of the aforementioned.


You can feel free to paraphrase it, but direct quoting of conversations you have with any of the above is not allowed.


surely that is entrapment as any indirect quote can be construed as libel for not being word for word accurate and the alternative is banned under terms of use? I will look into this with regards to statutory rights etc further.
amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-01-10 16:21:46 UTC
Ohishi wrote:
I believe this is a glitch and instead of fixing it CCP just made up a BS answer for you that was ambiguous at best so that you rattle it around in your head and then give up on it so as not to ruffle too many feathers. They don't know why sometimes a ship that is webbed will never warp and therefore just try to sweep it under a rug so they don't have to worry about fixing it.



This 100%

I have lost more than one ship in nullsec DED plexes in the following scenario:

As my shield tanked ship's tank starts to fail I allign to something and when my speed reaches warp range I press warp. At this point the warp gauge fills and the warp drive active message shows on the screen. Despite this, my ship never entered warp. At this point you watch as the rats cut thru your armor, rip thru your hull, and pop your ship. In one instance I counted over 20 seconds between the time when my ship should have entered warp based on normal game mechanics and when the ship popped. The fact that this happens more than once indicates a bug.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#15 - 2013-01-10 17:43:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
OP didn't really explain well enough what happened to him. It was my understanding that having your max speed drastically reduced below your current speed makes it difficult to maneuver until you slow down, therefore I imagine that the OP couldn't align prior to slowing down. OP says this is not true. I've never heard of the current speed must be less than max speed thing being a rule, particularly as the cloak + warp trick is possible without having to check your speed when deactivating the cloak. So either the OP wasn't really aligned even though he thought he was, or its a glitch. I suppose.


Smegskull wrote:


surely that is entrapment as any indirect quote can be construed as libel for not being word for word accurate and the alternative is banned under terms of use? I will look into this with regards to statutory rights etc further.


Stop watching court procedurals on tv.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#16 - 2013-01-10 21:37:25 UTC

I don't know your situation, but I want to clarify a couple of things:

1.) To enter warp: To enter warp, your ship needs to be aligned and moving directly towards your warp destination (within a few % of angular deviation), traveling at 75% or greater of your current maximum velocity, and not be inhibited by any warp inhibiting effects (scrams, bubbles, etc).

2.) The specifics of your situation are not included in your post at this time.... It often, when your max velocity is above 75% and you are not entering warp, it's because you are not aligned to the destination. An object like an acceleration gate, or a station, or a large collideable object may be blocking your path, so your ship gets "stuck" trying to align while colliding with that object. When this happens, you really need to hit ctrl+space to stop your warp, then manual fly your ship away from the object that's blocking your alignment so you can then align and reach 75%+ speed before colliding with that object. Often, it's just easier to find a different warp out point who's alignment isn't blocked. Realize that some missions put you in the center of an asteroid area where there are tons of things to collide into that block your path, and manual steering is needed.

3.) The pirate trick to gank freighters is an exploit of a bug, that I'm pretty sure has been fixed. It used to be hitting ctrl+space didn't actually "end" your attempt to warp. The warp attempt wouldn't end until your ship decelerated to say 50% of your maximum velocity. Pirates would use multiple 90% webs to reduce the maximum velocity of a freighter to say 2 m/s, and then would continually bump the freighter so it's velocity was well above it's "maximum" velocity. Since the freighter could never decelerate to below 50% of it's maximum velocity, it would never leave the "warping state". And since they would bump it in a direction that was not aligned to their warp destination, the freighter would also never enter warp. Since the freighter was in a limbo "attempting to warp" state, it also couldn't dock allowing pirates to gank it. I'm 90% sure this "bug" was fixed, and anyway, abusing it is a bannable offense.

4.) I've seen another bug, where activating an acceleration gate caused a ship to align into the acceleration gate, which blocked the alignment. Then the ship is awkwardly stuck on the gate, and for whatever reason ctrl+space didn't stop the warp. I haven't run missions in quite a long time and believe this bug was fixed.

In conclusion... are you sure your path wasn't blocked? That's a very common reason for not entering warp...



amurder Hakomairos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-01-11 00:41:16 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


In conclusion... are you sure your path wasn't blocked? That's a very common reason for not entering warp...




in my case i'm 100% certain that my path was clear
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2013-01-11 09:16:28 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
3.) The pirate trick to gank freighters is an exploit of a bug, that I'm pretty sure has been fixed. It used to be hitting ctrl+space didn't actually "end" your attempt to warp. The warp attempt wouldn't end until your ship decelerated to say 50% of your maximum velocity. Pirates would use multiple 90% webs to reduce the maximum velocity of a freighter to say 2 m/s, and then would continually bump the freighter so it's velocity was well above it's "maximum" velocity. Since the freighter could never decelerate to below 50% of it's maximum velocity, it would never leave the "warping state". And since they would bump it in a direction that was not aligned to their warp destination, the freighter would also never enter warp. Since the freighter was in a limbo "attempting to warp" state, it also couldn't dock allowing pirates to gank it. I'm 90% sure this "bug" was fixed, and anyway, abusing it is a bannable offense.

And here I am to ask very noobish and a bit off-topic question: since webbing is an aggressive act anyways, why don't just point the thing? Or it was used exactly for that aspect that prevented docking when this happens on stations?

It is especially interesting to know since I thought that 90% webs were used by freighter's escort to insta-warp the thing from standstill after jump (there's no problem with direction, just speed).

On a related note, I think I should test some. I'm pretty sure I was able to stop warping by hitting "stop", but ability to do this while moing at good speed would be nice to check somehow...

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#19 - 2013-01-11 17:52:41 UTC
Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
3.) The pirate trick to gank freighters is an exploit of a bug, that I'm pretty sure has been fixed. It used to be hitting ctrl+space didn't actually "end" your attempt to warp. The warp attempt wouldn't end until your ship decelerated to say 50% of your maximum velocity. Pirates would use multiple 90% webs to reduce the maximum velocity of a freighter to say 2 m/s, and then would continually bump the freighter so it's velocity was well above it's "maximum" velocity. Since the freighter could never decelerate to below 50% of it's maximum velocity, it would never leave the "warping state". And since they would bump it in a direction that was not aligned to their warp destination, the freighter would also never enter warp. Since the freighter was in a limbo "attempting to warp" state, it also couldn't dock allowing pirates to gank it. I'm 90% sure this "bug" was fixed, and anyway, abusing it is a bannable offense.

And here I am to ask very noobish and a bit off-topic question: since webbing is an aggressive act anyways, why don't just point the thing? Or it was used exactly for that aspect that prevented docking when this happens on stations?

It is especially interesting to know since I thought that 90% webs were used by freighter's escort to insta-warp the thing from standstill after jump (there's no problem with direction, just speed).

On a related note, I think I should test some. I'm pretty sure I was able to stop warping by hitting "stop", but ability to do this while moing at good speed would be nice to check somehow...


First, I thought this "bug" was being exploited was fixed....

Second, this was a trick to gank freighters on stations... A JF would jump into system, dock, undock with a lot of speed in a direction not aligned to their warp destination, and then they would hit warp to align and warp there.... That's when the 90% webs and the bumping kept them in the "warping" state so they couldn't redock, and by bumping them out of alignment they would never warp. If you scrammed them, you would stop their warp which would allow them to dock...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#20 - 2013-01-11 18:22:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Tzel Mayon wrote:

Questions:
1. Would simply, "aligning to a new destination", allow me to slow down my ship fast enough to reinitiate warp? Is "stop ship" faster?
2. Doesn't the MWD/Cloak trick allow people to warp while over 100% of their maximum speed? Is the upper limit really 100%? or more like 300%?
3. Doesn't insta-undocking get you over 100%?

Also, the "under 100% max speed to enter warp" requirement seems kind of arbitrary. Is there any way to petition to have this removed? (Other ships over my max speed can still enter warp, etc). Why does this constraint exist?

Regards,
"Stuck often by last moment webifiers while trying to warp out in level IVs and Epic Arc Missions."


1.) You can't align to a new destination until you stop your current warp... so you need to hit cntrl-space to stop the warp and then you can warp to a new destination. I don't know why you took so long to warp if you weren't bumping off an object....(realize objects in space are bigger than they appear on your screen). If you are flying a massive ship (BS with plates), are using a prop mod (which adds mass to your ship), and/or webbed, it's possible for your align time to be very long, especially when you are already moving at a good speed in a completely different direction than your "warp out" point.... Still, your align time to warp out should be on the order of 10-30ish seconds.... It shouldn't be over 30s unless you are in a capital.... In the future, when fighting overwhelming forces, you should align at the start of the fight so you can warp the moment you realize you're in trouble!

2.) I think we should explain 100% velocity.... 100% velocity is the max speed your ship will go using it's own propulsion systems.... If you turn on an AB, your max velocity increases... etc.... You can ALWAYS go faster than your max velocity... The four standard ways to go faster than you max velocity:

A.) Be traveling with a prop mod, and turn off the prop mod.... When the prop mod disengages your max velocity instantly changes... but your ship takes time to slow down so you'll be traveling well above your "max" velocity for a while...

B.) Bump off a station/gate/force field/object. This usually only happens to capital ships, and most commonly when they cyno into a system. Upon cynoing in, they may be "on top of" an object, which they then bounce off of.... This is a very dangerous situation, and I've seen carriers bounce 100+ km's off a station from this. Another "fun" thing to do is be waiting close to an enemy POS that's onlining.... When the force field onlines you'll get bounced by the force field, and shoot out at a very high rate of speed....

C.) Being bumped by enemy ships.... Generally speaking, this applies primarily to capital ships.... You can "ram" your ship into a capital ship and bounce it to a decent velocity, well above their "max" velocity...

D.) Undock... When you undock, you are always traveling above your "max" velocity.

2.) The MWD-cloak trick takes advantage of the warp mechanics. As I stated earlier, to enter warp you need to be aligned towards your destination and traveling at 75% of your max velocity. Most cloaks reduce your max velocity, but MWD's increase it. If you MWD and then cloak, your MWD will finish it's cycle before disengaging. When an improved cloak, which reduces your max velocity to 25%, is coupled with an MWD, which boosts your speed 5 fold, you can cloak & MWD the moment after hitting align. After the MWD cycle finishes, you then disengage your cloak.. At that point, you'll be traveling aligned and above 75% of your max velocity. Tap warp, and you'll instantly warp....

3.) Insta undocking: When you undock from a station, you are always traveling well above your max velocity... If you have a warpable bookmark or object straight ahead, you'll meet the aligned to and traveling above 75% max velocity requirements. As such, you can instantly warp to it.