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CCP Any changes to Mining for Winter 2012?

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Jada Maroo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2011-10-24 19:07:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:
This.


Why does an iPad game have better mining and space flight effects than our game?
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#42 - 2011-10-24 19:08:58 UTC
Off topic posts removed, please stay on topic.

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CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Severian Carnifex
#43 - 2011-10-24 19:09:42 UTC
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
Severian Carnifex wrote:
- make belts so that you must scan them... i dont think botts can do scanning very well... (maybe add some more statics on scans too so that you must have brain to see its only static)
- static belts have only very small roids for new players... (strips dont have use if it)
- when you left scanned belt its gone... you must scan again...
- make roid stealing criminal act so you can shoot that person - botts dont see what roid you mine...
- make fleeting with other players and making real ops more rewarding then solo mining (orca boost better) - botts dont fleet



some ok ideas here, but still mining is zzzzz



thnx...
i know its zzz... but ppl do it any way... :)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#44 - 2011-10-24 19:11:06 UTC
Charlotte The Harlot wrote:
two things That need to be done together..

1. make it impossible to bot..

2 make it impossible to gank high sec miners..
Non sequitur.
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2011-10-24 19:19:12 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
Tippia wrote:
If they could solve the latency issues, they should just blatantly steal Galaxy of Fire's mining minigame.
Can you find a youtube vid for me? I don't even know what I'm looking for and feeling lazy.
This. Basically, it's a game of “keep the reticle within the circle” where the circle keeps shrinking as you suck up more ore, and the reticle keeps bouncing around, trying to get away from the centre of the circle.

Better mining drills gives you more control (by slowing the slippage down and/or by increasing your ability to push back). More valuable ores can be had by first stripping away the outer layers and then drill at the core, when the circle is at its absolute smallest.

If you're too slow/hamfisted to control the drill, it slips outside the drill zone and starts overheating. Overheat too much, and the whole asteroid explodes, making you lose all the ore from it. At any time, you can simply stop and collect however much you've extracted so far (so if you're about to explode, it's better to just take what little you have, rather than try to fight for control and lose it all). Once you've stopped drilling — either by overheating, by interrupting the process, or by finishing up with the core drilling, the asteroid is no longer available for further attempts until it respawns. Of course, a lot of these details are matched to how GoF handles respawns and availability in general (it's an SP game so you have no real competition, and no-one gets upset if you just blow every last rock to pieces), so all of it isn't exactly directly transferrable to EVE… but some of the basic ideas might work.


That's a horrible mechanic in that game. And I'm not entirely convinced that it wouldn't kill the afk miner populace making way for bot programs being extremely successful at it.

No, I think the thing to do about mining is remove simplistic repetitiveness from mining altogether. Mineable roids need to be extremely hard to find, extremely dangerous to mine. Eve should have a "badlands" of sort, current space not withstanding, that's really only attractive to miners and explorers, having certain properties, like w-space, that dampens the efficacy of PVP but that doesn't make it impossible. It should be something that the barges can at least have a fighting chance in groups of defending themselves. This space needs to take time to get to, be difficult to get in and out of and only support mining outposts incapable of supporting PVP ships in any way and having limited lifespans. PVP'ers can go in there, at reduced efficacy, but they got to bring everything they need with them. Miners too. Gotta bring in everything they need and ship out all their ore. The amount of ore coming out should be small, but profitable. Anyone going in there should realize that they just can't come and go as they please as to discourage all but the most determined roving gangs. They should realize they're going to be there for a while. This space should have no sov, no racial bias, nothing. It's just empty explorable space. It's resources, whatever they might be, should be far and few between but extremely profitable.

Don't ban me, bro!
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#46 - 2011-10-24 19:21:49 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
We want breast augmentations and sluttier clothing in the NeX!


Only if I get to buy MOOBS!
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Avila Cracko
#47 - 2011-10-24 19:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Avila Cracko
Boost rats!!!

1) Players can defend themself better then botts
2) Its more involving


+ some of those points guy few posts before wrote would be good too...

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#48 - 2011-10-24 19:28:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Takamori Maruyama wrote:
You guys are just being greedy, want to keep all the profit.Sometimes if you want to make some profit you need to pay to reduce the risk.
Its not bloody rocket science this sort of logic.


The last guy I met IRL affirming what you just said finished with a hole between his eyes (for true), was a nice guy thou.
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#49 - 2011-10-24 19:29:00 UTC
Avila Cracko wrote:
Boost rats!!!

If the rats in system responded to each other the way sleepers do, showing up to RR to warp scram you ... oh I'd love it.

Hell if Belt rats SHOT your jet can ...
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#50 - 2011-10-24 19:29:07 UTC
Takamori Maruyama wrote:
Basileus Volkan wrote:
Adding a mini game to mining will only serve as a distraction, so miners are even easier to gank.

And I doubt it could keep people from botting either.


Actually yes, since it will move the cursor to a random direction that a bot cannot prevent.It would fumble the bottter mining.
As for the ganking a + for merc corps , guard services etc.


The bots could move it back much faster than a person as they got a faster reaction time, always follow the program and never get fatigued. Remember when trying to design a game that cannot be botted:

A bot is world chess champion.
A bot is world Jeopardy champion.
A bot can drive a rover on Mars.

So to make the game un-bottable, its got to be more difficult than chess, Jeopardy, and driving over unknown rugged terrain all at the same time. Oh, and fun and playable for a human player that just started eve for the first time.

Also mercs cannot protect miners from an alpha strike as that would mean they got to shoot first, and then they become the criminals and get concorded.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
mkint
#51 - 2011-10-24 19:29:46 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
Tippia wrote:
If they could solve the latency issues, they should just blatantly steal Galaxy of Fire's mining minigame.
Can you find a youtube vid for me? I don't even know what I'm looking for and feeling lazy.
This. Basically, it's a game of “keep the reticle within the circle” where the circle keeps shrinking as you suck up more ore, and the reticle keeps bouncing around, trying to get away from the centre of the circle.

Better mining drills gives you more control (by slowing the slippage down and/or by increasing your ability to push back). More valuable ores can be had by first stripping away the outer layers and then drill at the core, when the circle is at its absolute smallest.

If you're too slow/hamfisted to control the drill, it slips outside the drill zone and starts overheating. Overheat too much, and the whole asteroid explodes, making you lose all the ore from it. At any time, you can simply stop and collect however much you've extracted so far (so if you're about to explode, it's better to just take what little you have, rather than try to fight for control and lose it all). Once you've stopped drilling — either by overheating, by interrupting the process, or by finishing up with the core drilling, the asteroid is no longer available for further attempts until it respawns. Of course, a lot of these details are matched to how GoF handles respawns and availability in general (it's an SP game so you have no real competition, and no-one gets upset if you just blow every last rock to pieces), so all of it isn't exactly directly transferrable to EVE… but some of the basic ideas might work.


That's a horrible mechanic in that game. And I'm not entirely convinced that it wouldn't kill the afk miner populace making way for bot programs being extremely successful at it.

No, I think the thing to do about mining is remove simplistic repetitiveness from mining altogether. Mineable roids need to be extremely hard to find, extremely dangerous to mine. Eve should have a "badlands" of sort, current space not withstanding, that's really only attractive to miners and explorers, having certain properties, like w-space, that dampens the efficacy of PVP but that doesn't make it impossible. It should be something that the barges can at least have a fighting chance in groups of defending themselves. This space needs to take time to get to, be difficult to get in and out of and only support mining outposts incapable of supporting PVP ships in any way and having limited lifespans. PVP'ers can go in there, at reduced efficacy, but they got to bring everything they need with them. Miners too. Gotta bring in everything they need and ship out all their ore. The amount of ore coming out should be small, but profitable. Anyone going in there should realize that they just can't come and go as they please as to discourage all but the most determined roving gangs. They should realize they're going to be there for a while. This space should have no sov, no racial bias, nothing. It's just empty explorable space. It's resources, whatever they might be, should be far and few between but extremely profitable.


How would the badlands play out in-game? Would they be a shifting maze of warpable beacons in a solar system, or would they be something like w-space, or a cross of both?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Big Bad Mofo
Doomheim
#52 - 2011-10-24 19:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Big Bad Mofo
Galaxy On Fire 2 - An App Store game that looks a ton better than eve...Shocked Shame its not MMO..or CCP would be losing a ton more subs - See those nebulas, and space debris and planets and.....oh i think you get the picture..and everyones getting excited that eve MIGHT be getting nebulas - still 5 years behind...

I
Avila Cracko
#53 - 2011-10-24 19:32:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Avila Cracko
to update list of that guy before:

- make belts so that you must scan them... i dont think botts can do scanning very well... (maybe add some more statics on scans too so that you must have brain to see its only static)
- static belts have only very small roids for new players... (strips dont have use if it)
- when you left scanned belt its gone... you must scan again...
- make roid stealing criminal act so you can shoot that person - botts dont see what roid you mine...
- make fleeting with other players and making real ops more rewarding then solo mining (orca boost better) - botts dont fleet
- Boost rats - botts have more problems with defending themself then real people, and it would be more involving.

truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Apollo Gabriel
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#54 - 2011-10-24 19:33:18 UTC
Big Bad Mofo wrote:
Galaxy On Fire 2 - An App Store game that looks a ton better than eve...Shocked Shame its not MMO..or CCP would be losing a ton more subs


you mean it's an iphone game?
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Big Bad Mofo
Doomheim
#55 - 2011-10-24 19:34:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Big Bad Mofo
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
Big Bad Mofo wrote:
Galaxy On Fire 2 - An App Store game that looks a ton better than eve...Shocked Shame its not MMO..or CCP would be losing a ton more subs


you mean it's an iphone game?


Yeah and IPad and Android
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2011-10-24 19:36:20 UTC
mkint wrote:
How would the badlands play out in-game? Would they be a shifting maze of warpable beacons in a solar system, or would they be something like w-space, or a cross of both?


I don't know. But, the actual mining should be a very small part of it. The exploration and setup up should be where the majority of the effort is focused. And like I said, what they get out should be in small amounts but their profit should be impressive.

Don't ban me, bro!
Alice Katsuko
Perkone
Caldari State
#57 - 2011-10-24 19:52:12 UTC
The problem with most of the suggested changes to mining, such as turning mining into a quicktime event or minigame, is that they sound good on paper, but would quickly become extremely annoying to actually use.

Quicktime events are generally a bad idea if used repetitively. They don't really reward skill so much as twitch-based reflexes and pattern memorization, and get very annoying very quickly. Quick-time events only work if used extremely sparingly and without much repetition. For example, Resident Evil's quick-time events more or less work the few times they are used, but the game would be a complete pain to play if every level required you to randomly mash two buttons together for no apparent reason.

Minigames are also a bad idea for repetitive tasks, because the get boring very quickly. For example, Oblivion has a minigame for lockpicking, which was fun for the first twenty or thirty times, but now is just a complete pain. Ditto for the moneymaking game in Fable 3.

The current mining mechanic does tend to favor automation and botting. But it also works well for players who want a semi-passive way of making ISK. Any changes to the system will require more than just cobbling together a few FOTM mechanics.

Avila Cracko wrote:
make belts so that you must scan them... i dont think botts can do scanning very well... (maybe add some more statics on scans too so that you must have brain to see its only static)

It takes five minutes for a competent scanner with average scanning skills to scan down any site. Bot operator could scan down the site, warp the miner in, rinse and repeat. The only real inconvenience would be to low-SP players. If the belt de-spawns. it would make nullsec and lowsec mining more annoying because a new belt would have to be canned every time a red pops into system. No, PvP players will not babysit hulks for hours on end, so that's not a viable solution, although if you personally are willing to look at mining lasers for hours on end while sitting in a belt in a PvP ship, more power to you.

Avila Cracko wrote:
- make roid stealing criminal act so you can shoot that person - botts dont see what roid you mine...

Won't have any effect in null or low-sec space. Will add another way for people to grief miners.

Avila Cracko wrote:
- make fleeting with other players and making real ops more rewarding then solo mining (orca boost better) - botts dont fleet

Botters are perfectly capable of working in fleets. Besides which, gang mining is already more profitable due to Orca boosts. But a bot account can be profitable if it mines all day even if it only makes half the ISK of a human in a fleet.

Avila Cracko wrote:
- Boost rats - botts have more problems with defending themself then real people, and it would be more involving.

Not really. There are bots which are perfectly capable of belt ratting and salvaging, or even clearing out anomalies. Plus there's a limit to how much tank can be fitted onto even a Hulk, so if rats are boosted too much, then mining will become impossible except for players with alts or exclusively as a corp-level activity. This mechanic might work if there were combined mining/PvE anomalies, so that both PvE-ers and miners could make ISK side by side.
Iosue
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#58 - 2011-10-24 20:03:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Iosue
Vincent Athena wrote:
A bot is world chess champion.
A bot is world Jeopardy champion.
A bot can drive a rover on Mars.


While true, this is a little overstated. Yes bots do all those things, but there was also significant investment and development that went into those bots. Most EVE botters, or rather their programmers, aren't going to have the intellectual or processing resources of NASA or IBM.

That being said, its probably worthwhile to look at those areas of the game where botting isn't that prevalent. Exploration comes to mind right off hand, I'm sure there are others as well (PVP and Incursions??). By including some aspects of these features, it might be possible to reduce the botting problem (I say reduce cause there'll prolly always be some clever botter that can figure it out).

As someone said earlier, maybe its worth changing all belts to scan only? Sure it might be more work for the human miners, but they would benefit from not having as many can flippers bother with them.

Edit: Also, I'm not a programmer, but from what I've read, I believe it would be rather difficult to program a bot to scan sigs down, as exploration currently exists. Writing a program that could do all the changing and adjusting required in scanning would be a lot more challenging that writing something that basically tells the toon to warp to belt, target roid and fire lazer over and over again.
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2011-10-24 20:05:34 UTC
Charlotte The Harlot wrote:
2 make it impossible to gank high sec miners..

Why? You're not being serious, are you?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#60 - 2011-10-24 20:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Jada Maroo wrote:
Tippia wrote:
This.
Why does an iPad game have better mining and space flight effects than our game?
Big Bad Mofo wrote:
Galaxy On Fire 2 - An App Store game that looks a ton better than eve...Shocked
Don't worry — it doesn't look better than EVE. It's more like high(ish)-res Freelancer in terms of graphics quality, with a few modern texturing and shading tricks thrown in for good measure.

Its saving grace is its low resolution, the small screen, and having a “pose” mode that applies some extra post-processing goodness. In particular, the low resolution means that the backgrounds have the appropriate amount of detail, as opposed to EVE, which is commonly run at pretty high resolutions while having those (relatively speaking) low-res nebulas in the background.

These are all full-resolution shots: 1, 2, 3, 4.
Mr Kidd wrote:
That's a horrible mechanic in that game.
How so?