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Destroyers for orbital bombardment? Really??

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niko86
Disiecta Membra
EVE Trade Alliance
#81 - 2013-01-10 12:55:36 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
You may want to read up on EVE's lore. The 425mm shells fired by Gallente Hybrid weapons do contain anti-matter (most likely suspended as it is in real life in a magnetic bottle) and are fired at a considerable percentage of the speed of light.


Then why according to EvE lore do they magically cease to be at 30 or 40km?

As i have repeatedly said, i'm aware EvE doesn't (and shouldn't) simulate real physics. But the scenario in question doesn't even fit with EvE's version of physics and that's where i feel there is a break in imersion happening. Also the gameplay element but i'm happy to wait n see how that unfolds.


Inbuilt munition self destruct? Stop the chance of hitting a planet, ship etc. in the future as the projectile travels on its course.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#82 - 2013-01-10 12:57:23 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
You may want to read up on EVE's lore. The 425mm shells fired by Gallente Hybrid weapons do contain anti-matter (most likely suspended as it is in real life in a magnetic bottle) and are fired at a considerable percentage of the speed of light.


Then why according to EvE lore do they magically cease to be at 30 or 40km?

As i have repeatedly said, i'm aware EvE doesn't (and shouldn't) simulate real physics. But the scenario in question doesn't even fit with EvE's version of physics and that's where i feel there is a break in imersion happening. Also the gameplay element but i'm happy to wait n see how that unfolds.


I suspect the magnetic bottle runs out of energy to susain it's containment field, in which case the shell would just evaporate. I'd do it the same way, it's a nice safety mechanism to prevent stray shots hitting anything You dont want to hit, outside of a certain range ofc.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Lord Whisker
NetFlix Whilst Playing Eve
#83 - 2013-01-10 12:59:04 UTC
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahaha

all the dust players wll whine on here harder and harder
hahaha
ISD TYPE40
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#84 - 2013-01-10 12:59:07 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
You may want to read up on EVE's lore. The 425mm shells fired by Gallente Hybrid weapons do contain anti-matter (most likely suspended as it is in real life in a magnetic bottle) and are fired at a considerable percentage of the speed of light.


Then why according to EvE lore do they magically cease to be at 30 or 40km?

As i have repeatedly said, i'm aware EvE doesn't (and shouldn't) simulate real physics. But the scenario in question doesn't even fit with EvE's version of physics and that's where i feel there is a break in imersion happening. Also the gameplay element but i'm happy to wait n see how that unfolds.


I suspect the magnetic bottle runs out of energy to susain it's containment field, in which case the shell would just evaporate. I'd do it the same way, it's a nice safety mechanism to prevent stray shots hitting anything You dont want to hit, outside of a certain range ofc.



Now that seems like a perfectly acceptable reason to me. For other shells, perhaps a simple explosive charge to facilitate the same dignified and safe "end" to a shells existence should it fail to strike its target. Poor shells Sad They either explode on impact, or they just explode Sad Not much of a life really.

[b]ISD Type40 Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Keno Skir
#85 - 2013-01-10 12:59:47 UTC
Meita Way wrote:
[quote=Lipbite] I can understand why CCP want to scale this from the bottom up - because that's the only sensible way you can balance it. Anything else, and you'd kill off the new population base of dust before it established.


And there i was thinking we were supposed to be in charge of the spaceships..

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

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Keno Skir
#86 - 2013-01-10 13:01:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Keno Skir
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
You may want to read up on EVE's lore. The 425mm shells fired by Gallente Hybrid weapons do contain anti-matter (most likely suspended as it is in real life in a magnetic bottle) and are fired at a considerable percentage of the speed of light.


Then why according to EvE lore do they magically cease to be at 30 or 40km?

As i have repeatedly said, i'm aware EvE doesn't (and shouldn't) simulate real physics. But the scenario in question doesn't even fit with EvE's version of physics and that's where i feel there is a break in imersion happening. Also the gameplay element but i'm happy to wait n see how that unfolds.


I suspect the magnetic bottle runs out of energy to susain it's containment field, in which case the shell would just evaporate. I'd do it the same way, it's a nice safety mechanism to prevent stray shots hitting anything You dont want to hit, outside of a certain range ofc.



Now that seems like a perfectly acceptable reason to me. For other shells, perhaps a simple explosive charge to facilitate the same dignified and safe "end" to a shells existence should it fail to strike its target. Poor shells Sad They either explode on impact, or they just explode Sad Not much of a life really.


Restricting a round to a range 1% of what it could be doesnt sound realistic for any military or weapons producer, really come on you're grasping at straws :P

Don't wanna get into anything heated, im just here cus the games been down for AAAAAGES now Twisted

EDIT 2 : Its back now :D

Black Lanterns Blog <- Read my ramblings -.-

250,000 Bonus SP when you start an Alpha Clone HERE <---
Rain6639
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#87 - 2013-01-10 13:03:52 UTC
just be glad there isn't a sig radius factor. ...1m speed tanking dust bunny
Daedalus II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-01-10 13:08:20 UTC
Regarding range when shooting at planets:
Here you have the added benefit of the planet gravity helping your ammunition gain speed. For rail slugs you would probably be almost as good off just dropping the slug and let gravity speed it up for you. This is what gives you the extra range when shooting at planets.
Shooting lasers should probably have almost the opposite effect though, the atmosphere should make it reach shorter rather than further.

Regarding shooting in space:
I can agree that shots should reach further, but as some have stated, it can be a safety feature where the round is self-destructed if it gets past its intended target. It can also be noted that hitting a stationary planet is a lot easier than a moving enemy spaceship; your computer can't extrapolate the position of the enemy ship if it's too far away. However, shooting at stationary space stations should still be possible from just as extreme ranges as a planet (although you don't have planet gravity to help your ammunition gain speed).
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#89 - 2013-01-10 13:12:52 UTC
a destroyer is fine, they didnt use just battleships to bomb Centauri Prime in babylon 5, just an example of reasonably well known (probably more popular than eve) sci fi demonstrating how things can be different to what one would expect.

Admittedly i can also understand how it would be more fun and awesome to see a big gunboat like an abaddon or a hyperion shiping the heck out of planets. But then you have to think in DUST the idea is to hit a specific point, like a turret or whatever. A battleship bombardment would flatten the entire DUST map area and kill everything on field (though that could be interesting, a twist on the whole eve renowned "im going to screw you" possibility!)
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
#90 - 2013-01-10 13:15:26 UTC
I will camp planets in my anti-destroyer moros. Until this changes.
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#91 - 2013-01-10 13:23:09 UTC
Buhhdust Princess wrote:
I will camp planets in my anti-destroyer moros. Until this changes.


Nice. Link us the killmail on your Moros when it happens :)
Allko
Zero Tax services
#92 - 2013-01-10 13:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Allko
Vera Algaert wrote:
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
It may be worth remembering just how big and powerful the shells are that we use in EVE when compared to standard ground based weaponry. Gallente destroyers with rails will usually fire 125mm shells, slightly smaller than the 130mm shells fired by modern naval destroyers.

We know how much damage that kind of real life shell can cause, now imagine those shells being filled with anti-matter! And now imagine a shell half a metre across made of the same stuff travelling a good percentage the speed of light, the kind fired from a 425mm battleship railgun. The kinetic damage alone would vaporise a large portion of the area. Add in the anti--matter and you wouldn't just kill a few DUST soldiers, you would vaporise a few square kilometres.

assuming the payload of the destroyer shell is a cylinder with 115mm diameter and 600mm height, its volume would be pi*600mm*(100mm/2)^2 = ~4,712,389mm^3

It would reasonable to use some relatively heavy antimatter as ammunition, for the sake of the argument lead ions will do.

Lead has a density of 11,340 kg/m^3 or 1.1340 *10^-5 kg/mm^3, therefore our (anti-)lead cylinder would have a mass of ~53.44kg.

Using E = m*c^2 one antimatter shell would be converted into ~4.8*10^18 joules, the equivalent of 1,148 megatons of TNT.

The most powerful nuclear weapon detonated on earth so far had a yield of 57 megatons.

One single destroyer shell - the equivalent of 20 extremely powerful hydrogen bombs.

Those DUST mercs better watch out.


I have very limited knowledge about physics so dont troll me too harsh but maybe some1 have seen one of the Mythbusters series where those dudes use different type of weapons to shoot in a pool.
Now the most impressive was a 50mm sniper rifle. It shure did a large splash in the water but just like the other weapons... it`s bullet was disintegrated in the watter within the first 20-50cm

Now does the same effect appear when u shoot a projectile from a hybrid gun because atmosphere is pretty mutch the same as watter only less denser ???
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#93 - 2013-01-10 13:31:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Thomas Gore
Allko wrote:
Vera Algaert wrote:
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
It may be worth remembering just how big and powerful the shells are that we use in EVE when compared to standard ground based weaponry. Gallente destroyers with rails will usually fire 125mm shells, slightly smaller than the 130mm shells fired by modern naval destroyers.

We know how much damage that kind of real life shell can cause, now imagine those shells being filled with anti-matter! And now imagine a shell half a metre across made of the same stuff travelling a good percentage the speed of light, the kind fired from a 425mm battleship railgun. The kinetic damage alone would vaporise a large portion of the area. Add in the anti--matter and you wouldn't just kill a few DUST soldiers, you would vaporise a few square kilometres.

assuming the payload of the destroyer shell is a cylinder with 115mm diameter and 600mm height, its volume would be pi*600mm*(100mm/2)^2 = ~4,712,389mm^3

It would reasonable to use some relatively heavy antimatter as ammunition, for the sake of the argument lead ions will do.

Lead has a density of 11,340 kg/m^3 or 1.1340 *10^-5 kg/mm^3, therefore our (anti-)lead cylinder would have a mass of ~53.44kg.

Using E = m*c^2 one antimatter shell would be converted into ~4.8*10^18 joules, the equivalent of 1,148 megatons of TNT.

The most powerful nuclear weapon detonated on earth so far had a yield of 57 megatons.

One single destroyer shell - the equivalent of 20 extremely powerful hydrogen bombs.

Those DUST mercs better watch out.


I have very limited knowledge about physics so dont troll me too harsh but maybe some1 have seen one of the Mythbusters series where those dudes use different type of weapons to shoot in a pool.
Now the most impressive was a 50mm sniper rifle. It shure did a large splash in the water but just like the other weapons... it`s bullet was disintegrated in the watter within the first 20-50cm

Now does the same effect appear when u shoot a projectile from a hybrid gun because atmosphere is pretty mutch the same as watter only less denser ???


The disintegration of the bullet happened because of too high acceleration (or deceleration) on the bullet. It doesn't matter what the source of the deceleration is. Considering that the hybrid shells are designed to withstand a quick acceleration to sublight velocities, I'd say they withstand the deceleration when hitting the atmosphere fairly well.

EDIT: I realize I wasn't specific enough. In the bullet case, the highest force (deceleration) was focused onto the front of the bullet, making the rear of the bullet wanting to try to go forward faster than the front end. This difference in acceleration in different parts of the bullet is what tears it apart. An electromagnetic accelerator, such as a railgun, would probably accelerate the shell quite uniformly and as a result, it could still be torn apart when decelerated by a medium, where the most force is applied to the front part of the shell.
destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Rogue Drone Recovery Syndicate
#94 - 2013-01-10 13:32:14 UTC
awww destroyers CCP you shouldnt make vids such as this one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRyXDlZKwgA

I was looking foreward to fireing my dread at a planet and listening to the echo's of screams from the planet Lol
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#95 - 2013-01-10 13:38:34 UTC
DUST is in its very first stages of integration, and is not even released in full yet. I'd imagine that destroyers were chosen as the first vessel for bombardment because small ship sized guns would be the easiest to balance from a DUST point of view...A single thrasher will be firing a volley of 280mm artillery shells, remember. Stuff like battleships and dreads would do enough damage to wipe out huge portions of a DUST battlefield and thus while it would be cool to have, would need to be carefully balanced.

The concerns raised about a destroyer just leaving at the first sign of trouble are valid. Hopefully there's some sort of mechanic (perhaps a mini siege mode?) that forces pilots bombarding planets to be vulnerable.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#96 - 2013-01-10 13:41:10 UTC
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
Debora Tsung wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
ISD TYPE40 wrote:
You may want to read up on EVE's lore. The 425mm shells fired by Gallente Hybrid weapons do contain anti-matter (most likely suspended as it is in real life in a magnetic bottle) and are fired at a considerable percentage of the speed of light.


Then why according to EvE lore do they magically cease to be at 30 or 40km?

As i have repeatedly said, i'm aware EvE doesn't (and shouldn't) simulate real physics. But the scenario in question doesn't even fit with EvE's version of physics and that's where i feel there is a break in imersion happening. Also the gameplay element but i'm happy to wait n see how that unfolds.


I suspect the magnetic bottle runs out of energy to susain it's containment field, in which case the shell would just evaporate. I'd do it the same way, it's a nice safety mechanism to prevent stray shots hitting anything You dont want to hit, outside of a certain range ofc.



Now that seems like a perfectly acceptable reason to me. For other shells, perhaps a simple explosive charge to facilitate the same dignified and safe "end" to a shells existence should it fail to strike its target. Poor shells Sad They either explode on impact, or they just explode Sad Not much of a life really.


The candle that burns twice as bright burns half as long.

When you burn with the force of atomic destruction, you don't burn for very long.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#97 - 2013-01-10 13:41:42 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
DUST is in its very first stages of integration, and is not even released in full yet. I'd imagine that destroyers were chosen as the first vessel for bombardment because small ship sized guns would be the easiest to balance from a DUST point of view...A single thrasher will be firing a volley of 280mm artillery shells, remember. Stuff like battleships and dreads would do enough damage to wipe out huge portions of a DUST battlefield and thus while it would be cool to have, would need to be carefully balanced.

The concerns raised about a destroyer just leaving at the first sign of trouble are valid. Hopefully there's some sort of mechanic (perhaps a mini siege mode?) that forces pilots bombarding planets to be vulnerable.


Considering the destroyer will need to wait at the orbit for the beacon signal before it can fire, it will still require quite a bit of coordination between the dust mercs and the capsuleer to be able to just warp in, shoot and warp out.

If you happen to the planet before the orbital strike is fired and the destroyer warps off, the dust bunnies will be pretty disappointed already when their mighty hand of god suddenly chickened out. Mission accomplished?
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#98 - 2013-01-10 13:44:31 UTC
Thomas Gore wrote:
Kahega Amielden wrote:
DUST is in its very first stages of integration, and is not even released in full yet. I'd imagine that destroyers were chosen as the first vessel for bombardment because small ship sized guns would be the easiest to balance from a DUST point of view...A single thrasher will be firing a volley of 280mm artillery shells, remember. Stuff like battleships and dreads would do enough damage to wipe out huge portions of a DUST battlefield and thus while it would be cool to have, would need to be carefully balanced.

The concerns raised about a destroyer just leaving at the first sign of trouble are valid. Hopefully there's some sort of mechanic (perhaps a mini siege mode?) that forces pilots bombarding planets to be vulnerable.


Considering the destroyer will need to wait at the orbit for the beacon signal before it can fire, it will still require quite a bit of coordination between the dust mercs and the capsuleer to be able to just warp in, shoot and warp out.

If you happen to the planet before the orbital strike is fired and the destroyer warps off, the dust bunnies will be pretty disappointed already when their mighty hand of god suddenly chickened out. Mission accomplished?


Well that works. I was unfamiliar with the specific mechanics.

Welp, I fail to see the problem here.
Merouk Baas
#99 - 2013-01-10 13:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Merouk Baas
Are you guys really arguing the physics and lore behind destroyer small guns hitting at orbital distances?

Because, seriously, DUST is in BETA, and they picked destroyers as one of the easier ships to get into, to test this stuff out. Like it or not, we're also beta-testing, get used to it as they will mess with the market, mess with your ISKs, mess with the UI, and mess with the rest of the game for no reason other than to beta-test the interface to the DUST systems.

Requiring only dreads to be able to bombard planets locks away the feature behind, what, a year of training and several billion ISK? and limits it to lowsec and nullsec. NOT something that's desirable during a beta.

Doesn't mean it won't be like that come release. CCP can pull a bait-and-switch; they've done it in the past.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#100 - 2013-01-10 13:54:04 UTC
The phrase "this itteration" was repeated several times throughtout the devblog.

people need to train Reading Comprehension L1.
or go back to school, either would work.