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PVP Marauders - Why not?

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Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2011-10-24 16:50:22 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
Besides the obvious discouraging price tag and the bonuses obviously biased towards PVE, why are we not seeing more of those in PVP?

That self-reping bonus should account for something, right?
All those utility highs surely are a good thing, right?
T2 resists and **** ? Not enough?

My question is: If you have PVP experience with Marauders, pls share what happened and how it went.

PS. Ganked in a mission does not really count as PVP for the purpose of this thread, if you will.

ty...


Edit: Slighly offensive wording removed. CCP Phantom.

It knows what you think.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2011-10-24 17:04:07 UTC
It should not be taken offensively as far as racism goes.

So what about the PVP Marauders?

Do you remember that one time when a Paladin and a Golem warped in and red boxed? yea... me neither....

It knows what you think.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#3 - 2011-10-24 17:04:18 UTC
IIRC it's a combination of two things. First, they're bonused for active local tanking, not the RR that is standard in PvP groups (and they also have the tractor bonus, which is also wasted in PvP). Second, their sensor strength is just over half of the strength of the T1 BSes, which makes them crazy easy to jam. Also, they're pretty expensive for a PvP unless you're really rich (and if you have that much ISK, pirate BSes perform better).
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2011-10-24 17:05:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Desudes
Megathron (battleship - t1 Kronos) sensor strength: 21

Kronos (marauder - t2 Megathron) sensor strength: 13

Thorax (cruiser - mini-mega) sensor strength: 15


It's also 9 times the price for the hull. If they made it so it more people could make them (dropping price) so the difficulty using them was skills instead of ISK and skills, you'd probably see them used anyway.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#5 - 2011-10-24 17:08:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Sphit Ker wrote:


That self-reping bonus should account for something, right?
All those utility highs surely are a good thing, right?
T2 resists and **** ? Not enough?




Getting permajammed by a flight of EC 300s not enough?

Only pvp-like situation I've seen them somewhat successfully used in was Cry Havoc fielding them in an alliance tourney - was quite hilarious, as they used paladins with a mix of tachs and pulses on each, iirc...

Edit: Looked it up - it was AT VI, Cry Havoc vs the Bastards, and I think it was the only fight where they were fielded successfully, despite a few teams fielding them.

Wouldn't know of any fleet concept relying on them on TQ though...
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2011-10-24 17:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Phantom
I see sensor strength is a definitive problem. ECCM won't really help either.

I guess they are, by design, PVE ships and never intended to PVP. If that's how it is then that's sad. Need to be a total baller, a complete tool or both to PVP in those?


Edit: Off topic part removed. CCP Phantom.

It knows what you think.
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2011-10-24 17:19:37 UTC
L4 ships that aren't the best at L4s but require the most skills to fly.

I'm assuming they didn't want a repeat of the dominance of AFs and HACs or something. Kind of silly ship class.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#8 - 2011-10-24 17:39:44 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:
I guess they are, by design, PVE ships and never intended to PVP. If that's how it is then that's sad. Need to be a total baller, a complete tool or both to PVP in those?


I see those has capital escort, not strong on all points but strong enough tank and dps to get the crap out of most stuff daring to get close to your capital.
Salvage and the big cargo bay (I need the same one on my regular mega, navy and serpentis versions) make me think those ships are there for slow convoys and rip any thing on sight.

Then you have jump freighters rorquals and carriers jumping several ships in a single clic...why use marauders?
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#9 - 2011-10-24 17:47:15 UTC
Sphit Ker wrote:


I guess they are, by design, PVE ships and never intended to PVP. If that's how it is then that's sad. Need to be a total baller, a complete tool or both to PVP in those?



You should keep in mind that at the time they were introduced, Faction BS performance was utter crap for the most part and isk inflation was way lower, so not every scrub could afford to fly one.

So my guess is that CCP was afraid of marauders being 'abused' for pvp and roled them out heavily pre-nerfed.

Today, ungimping marauders wouldn't be an issue as Faction BS would still outperform them (besides the tractor bonus as well as the active tank bonuses being rather useless for PvP).

I guess they could be used in combination with remote ECCM, but then, why would anyone do that if you could use a fleet comprised of e.g. Bhaalgorns and Machariels?

I'd love the introduction of proper T2 PvP BS though - would be far better than introducing T3 BS, which would be close to impossible to balance. 
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#10 - 2011-10-24 17:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Still, if marauders get a sensor strength bost some day this would give me a proper reason to train BS to 5 for other purpose than make my pirate ships spit even more.
And since I'm not willing to train capital fight ships to be stuck in or spend my time fighting with my drones to do the job I order them to, or paladin style remoting all evening...

I'm fine with my T3's and T2 cruisers/bc's stuff, having all pirate ships with/and bs up to 5 is a hell of a goal to achieve.
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#11 - 2011-10-24 18:07:49 UTC
Off topic parts removed.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#12 - 2011-10-24 18:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Tanya Powers wrote:
Still, if marauders get a sensor strength bost some day this would give me a proper reason to train BS to 5 for other purpose than make my pirate ships spit even more.

I'm fine with my T3's and T2 cruisers/bc's stuff, having all pirate ships with/and bs up to 5 is a hell of a goal to achieve.



I have all BS at V, including Marauders V and BO V and their respective T2 weaponry (except cruises and rails) on my main, yet I currently wouldn't see a reason to pick a Marauder over a pirate faction BS, even if it had normal sensor strength.

In fact, I wouldn't advise anyone to use them even in PvE or train the Marauders skill at all (I trained it to V to use them as ratting ships before pirate faction BS were boosted, that's why I have it - if I could I would reallocate the SP nowadays).
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#13 - 2011-10-24 18:37:39 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Tanya Powers wrote:
Still, if marauders get a sensor strength bost some day this would give me a proper reason to train BS to 5 for other purpose than make my pirate ships spit even more.

I'm fine with my T3's and T2 cruisers/bc's stuff, having all pirate ships with/and bs up to 5 is a hell of a goal to achieve.



I have all BS at V, including Marauders V and BO V and their respective T2 weaponry (except cruises and rails) on my main, yet I currently wouldn't see a reason to pick a Marauder over a pirate faction BS, even if it had normal sensor strength.

In fact, I wouldn't advise anyone to use them even in PvE or train the Marauders skill at all (I trained it to V to use them as ratting ships before pirate faction BS were boosted, that's why I have it - if I could I would reallocate the SP nowadays).



I see there an excellent reason to give those marauders capital guns instead BS guns on BC hulls Blink
Puss in Boots
Naked Moon Industries
#14 - 2011-10-24 19:40:20 UTC
If you are in a marauder and and an iteron with an ecm module in the cargo hold, you are jammed. If a falcon is 2 systems away and the pilot simply chats you, you are jammed. If a guy in an ibis types the word ecm in local, you are jammed. I think you get the idea.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#15 - 2011-10-24 20:00:10 UTC
Puss in Boots wrote:
If you are in a marauder and and an iteron with an ecm module in the cargo hold, you are jammed. If a falcon is 2 systems away and the pilot simply chats you, you are jammed. If a guy in an ibis types the word ecm in local, you are jammed. I think you get the idea.



Don't go that far, anyone farting on ts will jamm you even docked
1-Up Mushroom
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2011-10-24 20:41:53 UTC
Look at your Marauder's Sensor Strength
Now back at a normal BS's sensor strength
Now back at your marauder's sensor strength
Now back at a normal BS's sensor strength
Sadly your marauder's sensor strength isn't like a normal one
Now if it stopped using up useless mid slots and switched to ECCM it could act like a normal BS's sensor strength
Look back at your marauder's sensor strength
Now back at a normal BS's sensor strength
Where are you? Your in low-sec with a normal BS sensor strength marauder
What's in your marauder's mid slot?
Look back at a normal BS's sensor strength
I have it, it's a T2 ECCM to prevent you from being jammed
Look again! The T2 ECCM is now an Officer ECCM
Anything is possible when you use an officer ECCM on your pvp maruader
I'm now in a titan
5 Senses In A Person... 4 Seasons In A Year... 3 Colors In A Stoplight... 2 Poles On The Earth... ONLY 1-UP MUSHROOM!!!  If You Like My Sig, Like Me!   Remember EVE is EVErything!
Lowspec
Interfector INC.
#17 - 2011-10-24 21:00:11 UTC
I can imagine certain situations where a marauder can kick some ass, but if you're gonna be spending that much isk on a couple of "specific situations" you might as well get a pirate faction bs that kicks ass no matter where you drop em in. Works like this

Nightmare > Paladin

Machariel > Vargur

Vindicator > Kronos

Rattlesnake > Golem ( a bit unsure about this since the rattler has the mother of all tanks, while the golem has the mother of dps's)

I smell shinniesTwisted

Also, pirate faction bs's have 3 bonuses that will always kick ass, while in a marauder 2 out of the 6 bonuses are damn useless (rep amount and tractor beam range)
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#18 - 2011-10-24 21:17:01 UTC
I've only used the Paladin and Kronos so far. Mainly in low sec, but I did have one engagement in 0.0 with the Paladin. Damage is really good on both and both have 90% 'Stasis Webifier'. I also have 'Heavy Neutralizer' on both. I find the Kronos is better for most situations you will find your self in, in terms of the current environment. Mind you, capacitor has been a problem. The Paladin setup I use has dual cap boosters, so that is less of an issue for the active tank under neutralizer pressure.

Both bring ships down fast! The Mwd on the Kronos I've found to be very useful. ECM is no more of an issue than it is for every other ship in game. I mean I don't bother focusing on it, because if a Falcon or Rook is being fielded. You will get jammed no matter what you're in. Since I don't engage ships far from gates or station. I tend to just de-agress and jump out tbh. That is the same under to much damage or neut pressure.

I've lost 2 Kronos to Neutralizing and 1 Paladin to Extreme incoming damage.

If the Kronos and Paladin had one more mid they would be alot better solo. Interesting enough, I'm not sure what role Marauders can play in fleets. Although in a 2 - 3 pilot gang I could see them causing some havoc.

Anyway, I don't fly these anymore because they're not cheap to lose. I prefer t1 battleships for what the Marauders do or Fleet Tempest and Machariel. Mainly because you lose less of those if ever.


-proxyyyy
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2011-10-25 02:40:42 UTC
1-Up Mushroom wrote:
Look at your Marauder's Sensor Strength
Now back at a normal BS's sensor strength
Now back at your marauder's sensor strength
Now back at a normal BS's sensor strength
Sadly your marauder's sensor strength isn't like a normal one
Now if it stopped using up useless mid slots and switched to ECCM it could act like a normal BS's sensor strength
Look back at your marauder's sensor strength
Now back at a normal BS's sensor strength
Where are you? Your in low-sec with a normal BS sensor strength marauder
What's in your marauder's mid slot?
Look back at a normal BS's sensor strength
I have it, it's a T2 ECCM to prevent you from being jammed
Look again! The T2 ECCM is now an Officer ECCM
Anything is possible when you use an officer ECCM on your pvp maruader
I'm now in a titan


You're still going to get jammed. Regular BSs can be jammed, and you're an ECM pilots first choice as you are usually easy to jam but very high dps ship.

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Perkone
Caldari State
#20 - 2011-10-25 02:47:45 UTC
Besides the sensor strength issue which is, in my opinion, a bit exaggerated, I've found them to simply be a complete pain in the butt to fit. It's really hard to take advantage of the utility high slots, two rigs restrains your options and in the end, you end up spending way too much for something that still is fat, slow and not that much better than a T1 BS. For the price of a well fit Vargur I'd rather get a Machariel or a Crystal clone to mess around in a Maelstrom. Or a Vindicator instead of a Kronos, or a Slaved Megathron.

But yeah, as others said it before, the boost on faction ships, especially the pirate ships, were sort of a blow to the Marauders's legitimacy and the further introduction of the Noctis didn't help the PvE side either.

No sig.
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