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Beginner's questions on L4 PVE support runs (Caldari)
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Dr Niz
Formidable Union of Limitless Knowledge
#1 - 2013-01-09 20:53:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Niz
Hello! I am quite new to the game and am interested in joining my friends on their L4 mission runs (they are all flying T2 fitted navy ravens + 1 Harbinger). What I was mostly interested in was a community suggestion for a Caldari support ship that could survive the occasional lock down in L4 PVE (not fleet boosting). I'd like to consider these options for "support":


primary desire:
- range extension / target painting
- shield repair / armor repair
- a way to occasionally leech bounty.

secondary desire:
- webbing for frigs
- salvage/loot sucking

Miscellaneous tertiary desire:
-can swap fit for pvp support
-can swap fit for low sec/WH explore solo

considering a drake as an all rounded ship. I dont have the ISK to look for anything > 100 mil but im sure i can buy low sell high my way up to purchase w/e you will suggest.

I would appreciate any constructive suggestions!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#2 - 2013-01-09 21:00:24 UTC
I'd go with a Ferox. You shouldn't die and the instant damage from Rails is going to be a big deal with all those Ravens on the field.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Dr Niz
Formidable Union of Limitless Knowledge
#3 - 2013-01-09 21:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Niz
Thank you for the reply :)

I was wondering what the advantages are of going hybrid turrets over missiles would be? If i ever fit for a solo seems that's all Caldari PVE is all about.

that, and i heard/read somewhere that rails kinda suck.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#4 - 2013-01-09 21:31:28 UTC
Rails aren't that great, it's true. The end game for Rails is probably Rail Rokh fleets and Naga fleets - both of which are very excellent. The Kronos isn't nearly as bad as people think, and it's actually quite a good little PVE ship. Blasters are pretty pimp, also. Quite possibly my favorite PVP ship of all time is the Harpy. :)

-Liang

Ed: Uh, I didn't mean to go all PVP on you. It's just that's all I do. Sorry. :(

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jazmyn Stone
Perkone
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-01-09 21:57:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jazmyn Stone
Dr Niz wrote:
Hello! I am quite new to the game and am interested in joining my friends on their L4 mission runs (they are all flying T2 fitted navy ravens + 1 Harbinger). What I was mostly interested in was a community suggestion for a Caldari support ship that could survive the occasional lock down in L4 PVE (not fleet boosting). I'd like to consider these options for "support":


I would appreciate any constructive suggestions!



I really think you're over-doing and over-thinking the L4s.

For one, there aren't really any "lock-downs" in a L4 that would hamper a group of CNRs . . .

Second, a group of CNRs in a L4 wouldn't need a support ship.

But, if you want to have some practice, forget the Harbinger, use the CNRs, and have someone bring in a Basilisk . I mean geez, with 3 CNRs you could have 15 drones out there doing damage.

All in all, if you want to have fun, and just plow thru L4s, go for it. The missions will go very, very fast, and then what? . . . split the LPs and isk between 3-4 guys? not very profitable. (but maybe some fun)

Sorry.

-Jaz

PS: What will you be bringing to the table?

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#6 - 2013-01-09 22:01:58 UTC
Jazmyn Stone wrote:

I really think you're over-doing and over-thinking the L4s.

For one, there aren't really any "lock-downs" in a L4 that would hamper a group of CNRs . . .

Second, a group of CNRs in a L4 wouldn't need a support ship.

But, if you want to have some practice, forget the Harbinger, use the CNRs, and have someone bring in a Basilisk . I mean geez, with 3 CNRs you could have 15 drones out there doing damage.

All in all, if you want to have fun, and just plow thru L4s, go for it. The missions will go very, very fast, and then what? . . . split the LPs and isk between 3-4 guys? not very profitable. (but maybe some fun)

Sorry.

-Jaz

PS: What will you be bringing to the table?


I think you should try bringing a CNR to a gang with a couple of strong turret damage dealers. While it's not such a big deal if you're alone, the instant damage is a really big deal in group PVE.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Dr Niz
Formidable Union of Limitless Knowledge
#7 - 2013-01-09 22:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Niz
I am not familiar with the term CNR. i'm going to assume it's an acronym alluding to the ravens.

really i'm aiming towards having fun with my friends while we grind up the isk to pvp comfortably as a group and that i have the isk to solo explore in low sec/wh space. we have several new players (the guy in the harbinger is new, for example), and i'm looking to fulfill a role that wont limit me too much in future SP. L4 missioning is the fastest and most reliable way to get ISK while training towards ships/weapons i'd probably use eventually anyways.

I have been researching the hybrid turrets and it seems that rails are not ideal for pve at all while have seen decent arguments between launchers and turrets for pvp (which favor the turret damage due to split damage types and 0 travel time).

edit: might just have to flip a coin on the path, i suppose. heavy missiles seem very promising for clearing sleeper camps though.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#8 - 2013-01-09 22:13:53 UTC
Rails are much better than people give them credit for, but they are lacking in some areas. In particular, they will do so much better than lasers against Guristas/Angels. I don't think people properly appreciate the advantage of Kin/Thm over EM/Thm for PVE. But if you're going into WH space, that's not nearly as big of a deal. Train lasers and don't look back.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Dr Niz
Formidable Union of Limitless Knowledge
#9 - 2013-01-09 23:06:56 UTC
okay i will give rails a go and see how well i do. thank you for all your input.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-01-09 23:59:51 UTC
Eww rails, eww ferox.Big smile

If you want to fly a BC and mission with buddies, make it a Tornado or Oracle. You'll do more dps than your friends in Raven and Harbinger combined. Just watch for rat aggro.Bear

Naga fails due to rails. The racial prerequisites for other race BC is only like a day crosstraining, so why gimp yourself.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#11 - 2013-01-10 00:05:00 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Eww rails, eww ferox.Big smile

If you want to fly a BC and mission with buddies, make it a Tornado or Oracle. You'll do more dps than your friends in Raven and Harbinger combined. Just watch for rat aggro.Bear

Naga fails due to rails. The racial prerequisites for other race BC is only like a day crosstraining, so why gimp yourself.


The Rail Naga's actually quite amazing, and quite durable compared to the other Tier 3s. Again, I will say train for lasers if you want to go to WH space. And the Oracle is mad pimping amazing.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jazmyn Stone
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-01-10 00:43:34 UTC
Dr Niz wrote:
I am not familiar with the term CNR. i'm going to assume it's an acronym alluding to the ravens.

edit: might just have to flip a coin on the path, i suppose. heavy missiles seem very promising for clearing sleeper camps though.


CNR - Caldari Navy Raven

With turrets, and the first time you hit the "fire" button, you get instant damage. With any missiles, you have to wait a few seconds for them to hit. Other than those first few seconds, hitting your targets with turrets or missiles they hit with the same frequency of their duration and damage. It seems that turrets need mods to help with their tracking speeds, missiles not so much. (but they do need some help too.)

Dr. Niz, I noticed that infact you are very new to EVE. It seems that going into L4's at this time you might want to put on hold. So in the short term, you should think of what you want now, and then what skills will you need to get you there. I'd go with missiles for the short term, and turrets in the long run.

I also remember reading somewhere, "just because you can fly a Raven, doesn't mean that you should."

Enjoy EVE and have fun.

-Jaz

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#13 - 2013-01-10 00:54:48 UTC
Jazmyn Stone wrote:

With turrets, and the first time you hit the "fire" button, you get instant damage. With any missiles, you have to wait a few seconds for them to hit. Other than those first few seconds, hitting your targets with turrets or missiles they hit with the same frequency of their duration and damage. It seems that turrets need mods to help with their tracking speeds, missiles not so much. (but they do need some help too.)


Two small corrections:
- Missiles also need help with their "tracking" via target painters, rigors, and flares. A standard Golem setup has 2 missile velocity rigs and 3 target painters. A standard CNR fit should sport at least 1-2 painters and 3 damage / damage application rigs.
- Missile/turret DPS is the same only when solo (which is common). In gang situations a missile ship will lose a significant portion of its DPS to others applying damage before its missiles arrive. Entire ships will explode before your missiles arrive - this is one of the biggest reasons we don't see "sniping Ravens" despite the fact they would be quite good at it.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jazmyn Stone
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-01-10 01:28:40 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jazmyn Stone wrote:

With turrets, and the first time you hit the "fire" button, you get instant damage. With any missiles, you have to wait a few seconds for them to hit. Other than those first few seconds, hitting your targets with turrets or missiles they hit with the same frequency of their duration and damage. It seems that turrets need mods to help with their tracking speeds, missiles not so much. (but they do need some help too.)


Two small corrections:
- Missiles also need help with their "tracking" via target painters, rigors, and flares. A standard Golem setup has 2 missile velocity rigs and 3 target painters. A standard CNR fit should sport at least 1-2 painters and 3 damage / damage application rigs.
- Missile/turret DPS is the same only when solo (which is common). In gang situations a missile ship will lose a significant portion of its DPS to others applying damage before its missiles arrive. Entire ships will explode before your missiles arrive - this is one of the biggest reasons we don't see "sniping Ravens" despite the fact they would be quite good at it.

-Liang



I agree, didn't want to write a book so I just mentioned a few things, that I felt Niz needed. I did say that missiles "do need some help too", but just didn't go into details, so thanks. (Liang you are much more knowledgeable than I.)

Niz, one thing I want to point out, that also may be obvious, are the support skills for the missiles, shields, rigs, TPs, drones, etc. So, (repeating myself), you may be able to fly a Raven very soon, but that doesn't mean you should. We don't want to have any rage quitting when/if you lose a BS. Not implying that you will, I'm just saying.

Fly safe, (or die like some of us with our guns ablazin and our hair on fire.)

-Jaz

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Dr Niz
Formidable Union of Limitless Knowledge
#15 - 2013-01-10 01:37:56 UTC
Hm all viable pointers. I am by no means -rushing- into anything. My priority is to get well fitted -> this thread is merely a nudging guide towards a specialty path that i may eventually pursue. L4 is definitely out of my league for quite some time, but it doesnt mean i cannot prepare myself for the mission tier. Just because I can pilot a battlecruiser outfitted with heavy missiles and some basic defenses, doesnt mean i want to lose it in a L4.

My bigger, more long term questions were oriented towards ship selection to suit my needs within a month, i'd say. I'm primarily an explorer/miner by trade (or want to be), but i like joining my friends on mission runs for the fun of it.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#16 - 2013-01-10 01:45:46 UTC
I'd say low sec exploration is probably more compelling than WH exploration. WH exploration is more about the WH experience, where low sec exploration has much much more variety. The mining in WH space is every bit as good as null sec though. The Drake is the fastest path to being able to (slowly) complete L4s on your own, but being fire support for corpies is way more fun if you can get away with it. As a bonus: it increases your standings and you'll have access to their L4 agents sooner. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jazmyn Stone
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2013-01-10 02:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jazmyn Stone
Dr. Niz,

At some point in time, and if you're out near Irjunen II, look me up. I usually run a couple of L4s just about every night. (23:00-02:00). You could tag along in a few L4s. I'll "show you the ropes". Then you could see what there like. (Hopefully, it won't be a too boring of a mission.)

-Jaz

Always remember Tovil-Toba, and what was done there.
Boudacca Sangrere
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-01-10 09:02:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Boudacca Sangrere
Here is a different idea for you:

Noctis. If your friends provide ample dps and tank (CNR plus Harbinger) then a nice Loot / Salvage ship would round out the fleet nicely. This way you can also earn some additional ISK for your ship fund. Also, the Noctis now has a (small drone bay), so if your REALLY want to add something else to the mix, have your drones help with frigs, or shield / armor rep (which ever you want or are able to use).

Oh and good salvage skills will DEFINATELY come in handy once / if you ever move to WH space. Big smile

Missions like Angel Extravaganza will net you around 25 mil in loot and salvage alone, toss a couple mil to your friends and everyone is happy.

B.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#19 - 2013-01-10 11:53:25 UTC
Do yourself a favour, don't ever take a noctis into battle. Pretend those drones are there for salvage drones and call it a day. Noctis is for cleaning up wrecks, not making them.
Rancor Kane
Geuzen Inc
#20 - 2013-01-10 14:57:53 UTC
Get an HML Drake fit a Target Painter or two, maybe a Web. and Have fun.


Shield rep I'd leave to the specialist, Osprey became a pretty decend shield rep ship with (importand with the new AI) lots o range.

though Id start with the Drake, just to get used to the missions and the like. A drake is a more forgiving ship when you make a mistake.
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