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HML or HAM after the missile nerf?
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Bankole Hun
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-12-30 13:23:51 UTC

Hello fellow WHers,

I'm trying to put together a tengu for C3s but I cant work out which missile system would be the better to go with.

[Tengu, HAM c3]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Damage Control II

Gist C-Type Large Shield Booster
10MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Assault Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst


That is my current plan, but its hard to know what the HAM missiles will be like with a web/T2 rigor. Anyone got any experience to share?


Other candidate was something like this, which can easily be switched to RR fitting.

[Tengu, RR HML soloed]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Capacitor Flux Coil II
Damage Control II

Pith C-Type Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst II

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#2 - 2012-12-30 14:18:05 UTC
Burning around everywhere to get within ~15km range or whatever it is on HAMs sounds like a massive ballache.
Bankole Hun
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-12-30 14:25:36 UTC
Yeah it is a concern, but the range isn't that bad. Its 26km with my skills, 30km with lvl5s. Jav T2 HAMs hit out to 40 with my skills for the odd spawn with webbers that orbit at 30, with good positioning you can drop one webber before they pull range easily enough.

The great thing with HAMs is the BS spawns you can switch to rage and hammer them for 650-700 dps.
Mur'zad
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-12-30 21:34:41 UTC
I am also very interested in this. Been considering a HAM Tengu since the patch but never got myself to try it out.
Ratha Pandemonium
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2012-12-31 07:56:18 UTC
Durzel wrote:
Burning around everywhere to get within ~15km range or whatever it is on HAMs sounds like a massive ballache.


Consider how much time will be spent doing that. You will likely get more dps out of HMLs compared to HAMs if you include the time that it will take to get into range. EFT is not real dps and this is one of those cases where that fact should shine like a beacon in the dark.
Akuma Tsukai
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-12-31 09:29:59 UTC
Go HML. I woundt do C3 in a tengu at all (time ineffecient imo) but if i should, with the amount of webbing there its HML all the way.
Raptors Mole
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-01-03 14:52:13 UTC
My thoughts,

Go HML - You will be outside of neut range for the majority of the time. DPS is lower than HAMs on paper, but you will be firing 100% of the time with HMs.
Passive Hardners = Doesnt sting so bad when you get neuted. As long as your resists are around 70% omni.

or

Use a drake if you have good fitting skills. Not as efficient solo, but a pair can run C3 sites OK.

Won't hurt so much when you get caught and you get to kill the tackling ship with drones )
Endo Scrote
xLegion of the dammedx.
#8 - 2013-01-08 11:21:39 UTC
HAMs everytime get some implants you will use less missiles, AB fitted ,HAMs everytime
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#9 - 2013-01-08 23:54:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Rall Mekin
I am currently deployed elsewhere in game, but I am running sites in a HAM tengu quite well. My tengu fit is basically:

Low
Ballistic Control System x4

Mids
Pith C-type small shield booster x2
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Republic Fleet 10mn Afterburner
Em Ward Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field Ii

High
Heavy Assault Missile launcher II x6

Rigs:
I honestly cannot remember, but I think its currently three missile rigs designed to increase HAM Range. You could go three Cap/Shield oscillator rigs (the ones that speed up your Rep cycle).

Subs:
Tengu Offensive -- Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion -- Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Resevoir (for cap reserve)

I apologize if anything is retardedly wrong as I am rebuilding this fit from memory as I can't get on my computer right now and look at it, but I'm 95% sure this is it. For a wormhole, I would probably change my rigs to 1 shield oscillator rig, 1 cap control circuit, and 1 rig to give you added missile range (probably the rig that gives your missiles more speed).

Even in a C3, I have never had to run my Tengu's tank constantly (I used basically the same setup for HML's in the past pre-nerf, except that I had a dissolution sequencer sub instead of a cpu efficiency gate). The exception might be the MAG and Radar sites.

The most dangerous thing to you will be swarms of cruisers and webbing frigates, but if you get at least +3 missile implants, you should be fine. If I understand correctly, they have changed the way the skill system affects damage with HAMs to where skills that used to not give bonus to unguided missiles now do, and the same is the case with implants. I have noticed my HAMs now work very well against frigate sized ships, especially using t1 or faction ammo.

I would suggest testing this fit on test server first though.

Now, the biggest reason NOT to do HAMS in a C3 (despite what I wrote above) is, if memory serves, battleships in certain sites keep range very far out of HAM range and it will take you a very long time to burn into range. The sleeper rats will also be moving away from you (as their AI keeps them at range), so it will take you longer to close. Also, as someone mentioned above, solo Tengu is inefficient isk wise period in C3. Even with changes, I would probably go HML in C3 for that purpose alone, unless you plan to avoid the sites that have rats spawning at 70+ km away.... which you honestly could (if my memory serves, that is... its been a while).

Me? I would take a friend or two, and go either all HMLS, or have one or two with HMLS for the ranged, small crap and one with HAMs for the heavier rats.
Shenra Twrin
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-01-10 00:51:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Shenra Twrin
Rall Mekin wrote:
I am currently deployed elsewhere in game, but I am running sites in a HAM tengu quite well. My tengu fit is basically:

Low
Ballistic Control System x4

Mids
Pith C-type small shield booster x2
Caldari Navy Shield Boost Amplifier
Republic Fleet 10mn Afterburner
Em Ward Amplifier II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field Ii

High
Heavy Assault Missile launcher II x6

Rigs:
I honestly cannot remember, but I think its currently three missile rigs designed to increase HAM Range. You could go three Cap/Shield oscillator rigs (the ones that speed up your Rep cycle).

Subs:
Tengu Offensive -- Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Propulsion -- Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Engineering - Augmented Capacitor Resevoir (for cap reserve)


You tought right, with this fit you posted which is not even cap stable!, you wrote, you would put in cap rigs. If you would use 3x CCC (2xt2 1xt1) then you would have enough cap but, only 30km range against trolol webfrigs/cruisers (hfgl with 30km range) like you mentioned.

2nd i doubt that 476 def (eft) is enough when i lived in c3 my tengu had about 1k def+ highcap(eft 1k is over tanked) and it costs nearly the same.

3nd the dps is nice but like i said no range and some cruisers who web derp around 40km, with sleeper web on you no fun to shoot.


I give you my fitting when i used to farm c3 (solo).

[Tengu, Tengu C3 Solo ]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Pith B-Type Large Shield Booster
'Copasetic' Particle Field Acceleration
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Rocket Fuel Cache Partition I ( get launcher rigging on IV or you need an 1% cpu imp oder faction cap recharger)
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II

Tengu Defensive - Amplification Node
Tengu Electronics - Obfuscation Manifold
Tengu Propulsion - Fuel Catalyst
Tengu Offensive - Accelerated Ejection Bay
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix


Pro:
Good Tank 932def (eft) enough to easy tank all combat sites in a c3
High Cap stable at 58% (sleepers can´t neut you empty even if you perma on your booster)
Enough Range to kill anything in a site without moving much ( 81,4km range, tengu only have max log range of 87.5km)
Solid Dps/Dmg 565dps ( only 60 dps less than 6launcher tengu with same tank), and 300dps less than ham but u dont need to move to your target = you can shot more rockets = more real dmg are dealed
Cheap! only about 1b-1,2b isk (fit +ship)


Con:
Slow ( Sometime you need to fly around a bit)
No Problauncher on it, so you need and alt who can overview the system or you need to scan your wh frist and then use dscan like every sec (even this cant save you if you are in a combat site and they come with cloakys) but this is pretty much on all ships without problauncher the consequence.
Needs Good Fitting and energys skills (you only have 10cpu grid left so u need imp if you dont have the skills or TRAIN ITPirate) but good cap skills are obligatory.


All in all you cant be much more save with a tengu, the only fit which beats this fitting in matter of survival is the 100mn Tengu but even thos can be catched if people know what they do (hello web lokis and vigis ).

my2cents

sorry four bat englisch Big smile


e/ found this fitting from Galenros from Frozen Dawn Academy
[Drake, C3 solo]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Ballistic Control System II

Shield Recharger II
Shield Recharger II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

should also do it if your pocket is small, but sites will take long because of the low dmg but even if you get ganked... its a drake so what