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Am I misunderstanding how reprocessing works?
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LemonyLIme
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-01-08 22:33:27 UTC  |  Edited by: LemonyLIme
I've been getting around 84% return on everything I've reprocessed so far, based on what the item's blueprint says it takes to manufacture it. The reprocessing window says net yield of 96.2%, and they take 3.28%. So that right there doesn't really add up. On top of that, I just reprocessed a frigate that takes 17k trit, 5k, pyerite, 3k mex, 1k isogen, and a handful of the others to manufacture, and got 13k trit, 0 pyerite, 2400 mex, 800 isogen, and 1 zydrine and nocxium. Overall that's about 41% of the blueprint costs, and why in the world would I get 0 pyerite? It's the first item that I've seen it do this. These are all at the same station with the same standings.
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-01-08 22:52:21 UTC
LemonyLIme wrote:
I've been getting around 84% return on everything I've reprocessed so far, based on what the item's blueprint says it takes to manufacture it. The reprocessing window says net yield of 96.2%, and they take 3.28%. So that right there doesn't really add up. On top of that, I just reprocessed a frigate that takes 17k trit, 5k, pyerite, 3k mex, 1k isogen, and a handful of the others to manufacture, and got 13k trit, 0 pyerite, 2400 mex, 800 isogen, and 1 zydrine and nocxium. Overall that's about 41% of the blueprint costs, and why in the world would I get 0 pyerite? It's the first item that I've seen do this. These are all at the same station with the same standings.



Some items have "extra materials" that are used when manufacturing. These values don't show up on the bpo and are un-recoverable if you try to reprocess them.

Frigates for example with the latest patch had extra materials added to their manufacturing costs. Which is why people made thousands of them and why the ships are being sold for less then their mineral values. So this is why you can't buy up an item being sold for less then material requirements and hope to reprocess them without first checking what the extra materials losses will be.
LemonyLIme
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-01-08 22:55:53 UTC
How do I know what these extra materials are? And if this is only true of materials not listed on the blueprint, then that doesn't explain why some of the materials listed on the blueprint were missing when reprocessed.
GreenSeed
#4 - 2013-01-08 23:17:48 UTC
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/index.php


hopefully CCP will make a stealth change and turn all those extra minerals into base, so researching will actually matter again.
Rengerel en Distel
#5 - 2013-01-08 23:20:28 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/index.php


hopefully CCP will make a stealth change and turn all those extra minerals into base, so researching will actually matter again.


They won't, or those people sitting on 20000 frigates will double their minerals by reprocessing them. Not to mention the 250k procurers still floating around.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#6 - 2013-01-09 00:03:40 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/index.php


hopefully CCP will make a stealth change and turn all those extra minerals into base, so researching will actually matter again.


Yes. Lets crash the mineral markets on a whim. Some of the PI goods that you could get by reprocessing NPC things when Tyrannis came out are still crashed due to the enormous stockpiles of those materials.


http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/64104/1/Retribution_Ship_Production.png
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63999/1/Mining_Barges_Produced.png

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#7 - 2013-01-09 05:54:14 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
hopefully CCP will make a stealth change and turn all those extra minerals into base, so researching will actually matter again.




I'd be happy if they just altered the text on the blueprint to reflect the fact it's got extra minerals, so you'd know Cry

I just hope it's not a sign of things to come, all the container blueprints are 100% extra materials, I understand why though, they were an NPC seeded item, so if they released the BPO's that were not extra materials, people would have found out and bought up lots of containers if the reprocessing minerals were higher value than the container cost I guess.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#8 - 2013-01-09 14:16:48 UTC
LemonyLIme wrote:
How do I know what these extra materials are? And if this is only true of materials not listed on the blueprint, then that doesn't explain why some of the materials listed on the blueprint were missing when reprocessed.

The mineral requirements where changed when the ships were rebalanced for teiricide.

Since formerly teir 1 frigates to balanced to be on par with the former teir 3 frigates they had to add mineral costs to the BPO's so they would also cost about the same to build.

A simple adding of minerals required though would have made any of those frigates built before the change reprocessable to more than went into the ship when it was built. As there is no differentiation between the ships built before the change and those built after.

As a solution to this potential exploit the additional materials were added as extra minerals that would not be recoverable through reprocessing. This however was well known long before the changes, resulting in many manufacturers stocking up of those ships while they could be made for the old mineral requirements. As a result we now have a market flooded with ships selling for less than their current mineral requirements. These ships were built before the change when mineral requirements were much lower. I expect it will be over a year before we see these pre-patch ship stockpiles depleted to the point where it will be profitable to make any of those ships. I do not believe we will ever see the extra materials on the BPO's changed. From now on ships will just not be worth reprocessing.

It seems odd that these extra materials are not listed separately on the BPO's but just included in the minerals list. But when you try to build them you see the break down of recoverable and unrecoverable(extra) minerals.

This has been done with all mining ships, T1 frigates, T1 cruisers, and T1 Destroyers. Battlecruisers and Battleships are next on the teiricde list.

What this means is by the time teiricide is complete all ships will cost much more in minerals to produce then what they can be reprocessed for.
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#9 - 2013-01-09 16:56:23 UTC
Maybe I'm stupid but I still don't understand why CCP is adding all these extra minerals to the construction materials needed to build ships. Has CCP stated anywhere the primary reason for why this has to be done? I realise ships are being given roles instead of differing strengths but other than it being another isk sink I can't fathom the reasoning behind it. For example I understand the Typhoon will be changed from the 'jack of all trades' it currently tries, and arguably fails, to be into a purely missile boat. But as a result of this change I don't see why the material cost of the Typhoon should be doubled. Cry

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#10 - 2013-01-09 17:18:24 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Maybe I'm stupid but I still don't understand why CCP is adding all these extra minerals to the construction materials needed to build ships. Has CCP stated anywhere the primary reason for why this has to be done? I realise ships are being given roles instead of differing strengths but other than it being another isk sink I can't fathom the reasoning behind it. For example I understand the Typhoon will be changed from the 'jack of all trades' it currently tries, and arguably fails, to be into a purely missile boat. But as a result of this change I don't see why the material cost of the Typhoon should be doubled. Cry


The formerly Tier 1 ships would have become significantly better than the Formerly Tier 3 ships because of their cheaper price. To fix that, along with re-balancing the stats of everything to be roughly level with each other, they re-balance the build cost.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
#11 - 2013-01-09 17:21:55 UTC
I too question the need to increase the material level, and therefore the cost of frigates, destroyers, and cruisers. Did they need some balancing tweaks, sure I like the changes, but I don't think there was really a good reason to make these ships more expensive. I don't know if this is their way of trying to balance the economy or what.
Iosue
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#12 - 2013-01-09 17:58:58 UTC
also keep in mind that the reprocessed amounts you receive are based on a perfect build, i.e. perfect ME copy or original. so if you're not starting with that, you'll never see a 100% return of your minerals, even with perfect station refine and standings.
Iosue
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#13 - 2013-01-09 17:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Iosue
Iosue wrote:
also keep in mind that the reprocessed amounts you receive are based on a perfect build, i.e. perfect ME copy or original and PE lvl V. so if you're not starting with that, you'll never see a 100% return of your minerals, even with perfect station refine and standings.


hehe, meant to edit and hit quote instead. Roll
Cup1dStunt
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-02-15 00:12:06 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
GreenSeed wrote:
http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/blueprints/index.php


hopefully CCP will make a stealth change and turn all those extra minerals into base, so researching will actually matter again.


Yes. Lets crash the mineral markets on a whim. Some of the PI goods that you could get by reprocessing NPC things when Tyrannis came out are still crashed due to the enormous stockpiles of those materials.


http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/64104/1/Retribution_Ship_Production.png
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63999/1/Mining_Barges_Produced.png


As soon as the market price of the ships reaches the build cost, it is no longer possible to profit by reprocessing your stockpiled ships (or cheap ones bought from the market) - at this point (which is not guaranteed to ever happen - but probably will) the materials should be returned to base - Unless the aim is to make the reprocessing skills useless.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#15 - 2013-02-15 07:10:12 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Cup1dStunt wrote:
As soon as the market price of the ships reaches the build cost, it is no longer possible to profit by reprocessing your stockpiled ships (or cheap ones bought from the market) - at this point (which is not guaranteed to ever happen - but probably will) the materials should be returned to base - Unless the aim is to make the reprocessing skills useless.


Skill. Scrapmetal Processing is one skill.

Also, when did they add extra materials to every module in the game?


The research argument for removing extra materials from the buffed ships is much better than the reprocessing argument (and still not very good, since each extra ME reduces the build cost by the exact same amount that it did pre-buff).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#16 - 2013-02-15 11:18:41 UTC
Cup1dStunt wrote:


As soon as the market price of the ships reaches the build cost, it is no longer possible to profit by reprocessing your stockpiled ships (or cheap ones bought from the market) - at this point (which is not guaranteed to ever happen - but probably will) the materials should be returned to base - Unless the aim is to make the reprocessing skills useless.


This is probably what CCP has in plan, for sometime in the future when the markets have reached 'normal' levels.

But when this will happen is unknown, and will most likely stay unknown until it happens.

Keep in mind that there are a lot of people with lots of isk and who enjoys playing long term market games.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#17 - 2013-02-15 20:40:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
LemonyLIme wrote:
How do I know what these extra materials are? And if this is only true of materials not listed on the blueprint, then that doesn't explain why some of the materials listed on the blueprint were missing when reprocessed.

The materials are listed on the BPO, just not as extra materials. What materials are extra is shown in the manufacturing window when you build the item.

By the time teiricide is done, every T1 ship will have a significant difference between the minerals needed to build it and what you get back when reprocessing it.

You may have thought you struck it rich when you saw that all these ships were selling below current build costs. But those ships were built before the change, with the old mineral prices. This change has been well documented.

I do agree though that the BPO's should be changed to show the extra minerals required separate from the normal mineral requirements.

After all it does seem these extra materials are a permanent addition. It makes sense that when scraping a ship, you would not get 100% useable materials back from it.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#18 - 2013-02-15 21:06:28 UTC
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
I do agree though that the BPO's should be changed to show the extra minerals required separate from the normal mineral requirements.


Yes.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon