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The Cleansing of Dal
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Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#21 - 2013-01-08 19:52:43 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:

You should see what Tribal troops do to an occupied station. We might not be nice when we take a system, but at least we're civilized about it.

Seriously, just guess at what an unspervised Valkear does to an Amarrian chapel, let alone a living Amarrian person. Go ahead.


You should stop spreading lies. Either provide proof of these accusations or retract them.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#22 - 2013-01-08 20:18:56 UTC
Tu quoque ?
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#23 - 2013-01-08 20:29:44 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:

You should see what Tribal troops do to an occupied station. We might not be nice when we take a system, but at least we're civilized about it.

Seriously, just guess at what an unspervised Valkear does to an Amarrian chapel, let alone a living Amarrian person. Go ahead.


You should stop spreading lies. Either provide proof of these accusations or retract them.


Surly your not suggesting the Minmatar have never committed war crimes before.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Tobias Primus
Virtus Crusade
Brave Collective
#24 - 2013-01-08 20:50:54 UTC
Brother Merdaneth,

My warmest wishes and most sincere congratulations on a very fine outcome for the Crusade.

I must congratulate you also for imposition of a very considered and just regime- inhabitants have a great deal to thank you for.

You ask for suggestions- what of your Orphange Project? I offer you, as I have previously, transportation of Dolls to any orphange you wish, but with God's speed to Dal inparticular.


Tobias Primus,
Loyal Servant of The Empire
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#25 - 2013-01-08 22:06:34 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Surly your not suggesting the Minmatar have never committed war crimes before.


You have understand how their minds work. To them, raping, torturing & murdering Amarrians isn't a crime, because to them we're not actually people. So as far they're concerned, they're not doing anything wrong. Certain factions back on Earth used similar tactics in their day. War never changes.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#26 - 2013-01-08 22:49:04 UTC
Its ok.

I am gonna start smashing a few idols too.

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#27 - 2013-01-08 23:03:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Certain factions back on Earth used similar tactics in their day. War never changes.


While some people may take the existence of Earth as a given, I'd like to remind you that the concept is still mostly regarded as a myth. Invoking the name of the supposed planet is not going to gain you any traction in an argument, Ms. Luftschreck. I'll refer you to this article.

As for you Ms. Rella, I do not have to retract anything, as it is the truth. War crimes have been committed by all of the militaries involved in these senseless wars; I will be the first to admit that. But by my judgment, the ones committed by the undiciplined and hard-lined forces of the Tribal Liberation Force have been the worst.

Certainly the commanding officers might have the sense to institutionalize their abuse, as documented in the account given by this Amarrian POW. However, your common soldiers are also capable of some very nasty things when left to their own hate-fuled devices.

Of course you won't find much documentation on the subject where you are as history is written by the victor, which your Republic thus far has been. But I assure you, what is done in the dark will be brought to the light.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#28 - 2013-01-08 23:23:49 UTC
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Certain factions back on Earth used similar tactics in their day. War never changes.


While some people may take the existence of Earth as a given, I'd like to remind you that the concept is still mostly regarded as a myth. Invoking the name of the supposed planet is not going to gain you any traction in an argument, Ms. Luftschreck. I'll refer you to this article.

As for you Ms. Rella, I do not have to retract anything, as it is the truth. War crimes have been committed by all of the militaries involved in these senseless wars; I will be the first to admit that. But by my judgment, the ones committed by the undiciplined and hard-lined forces of the Tribal Liberation Force have been the worst.

Certainly the commanding officers might have the sense to institutionalize their abuse, as documented in the account given by this Amarrian POW. However, your common soldiers are also capable of some very nasty things when left to their own hate-fuled devices.

Of course you won't find much documentation on the subject where you are as history is written by the victor, which your Republic thus far has been. But I assure you, what is done in the dark will be brought to the light.


You guys sure seem to forget 700 years of brutality to condemn us for a few isolated acts of it in a hurry.

Do you have a training course to go through to learn this stuff, or what?

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#29 - 2013-01-08 23:58:01 UTC
With all do respect to you and your organization, Mrs. Starfire, what happened 700 years ago is irrelevant to the victims of today's brutality. No one, Miinmatar or Amarr, who are caught in the misgivings of this war were alive to deal out grievances to your ancestors and those who seek to justify their brutality based on the sins of the past have lost the moral high ground, if there is even one to find. Don't justify the actions of your men or make excuses for them, reprimand them for behaving like animals and be sure they know that if they act like animals they will be treated as such, for all it does is give your enemy stronger resolve and weakens your cause.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#30 - 2013-01-08 23:58:57 UTC
I never denied what happened and is still happening to your own people, Ava. Do I have to remind you that my own people were also enslaved, but three-hundred years earlier than your own? We can expound upon the differences between the Ni-Kunni and Minmatar reactions to enslavement later, as it is actually a fascinating subject that I'd like to discuss. However, there is still the subject at hand; how our own respective militaries behave while they conduct the Empyrean Wars.

I hate to say it, but these are not isolated incidents. As far as I know, all Amarrian POW's are held in prison camps similar to the ones described in the account above. They are stripped of everything, and their beliefs and humanity are made a game of; something for the guards at the facility to systematically destroy until the death of the prisoner. Arguably this re-creates what happens to a Minmatar POW who is enslaved, but the comparison is not accurate.

A Matari POW on our side will not be treated well, but at the same time their fates will be dependant upon their individual master. A benevolent, cruel or (most likely) indifferent fate awaits a Minmatar captured on the front and taken to the Empire, but not so with an Amarrian. The eye-for-an-eye doctrine practiced by the Minmatar military demands that all Amarrians in their hands be met with the most crushing fate so that they might understand the sorrow of the Minmatar people. This punishment must be worse than that of the average slave, in order to make up for that 700 years of lost time.

Again, let me remind you that no side is without sin in this war. We have wronged you and you have wronged us. But where I do not deny what the Empire does, so do you deny or attempt to justify what the TLF does. All I ask is that you stop it and help put and end to it.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Ava Starfire
Khushakor Clan
#31 - 2013-01-09 14:26:17 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
With all do respect to you and your organization, Mrs. Starfire, what happened 700 years ago is irrelevant to the victims of today's brutality. No one, Miinmatar or Amarr, who are caught in the misgivings of this war were alive to deal out grievances to your ancestors and those who seek to justify their brutality based on the sins of the past have lost the moral high ground, if there is even one to find. Don't justify the actions of your men or make excuses for them, reprimand them for behaving like animals and be sure they know that if they act like animals they will be treated as such, for all it does is give your enemy stronger resolve and weakens your cause.


Actually, many of them are indeed quite alive.... it has been just over 100 years since the rebellion, and many, especially in the Empire, have lifetimes that are several times that.

Aldrith, have I ever condoned this sort of thing? But the squealing, name calling, finger pointing, and general stereotypical Amarrian attitude that has popped up again and again in this thread is a good example of WHY the attempt to enslave the Minmatar people failed. "We took Dal! Immediately do as much cultural and psychological damage as possible to the population before we lose it again!"

Also, way to conveniently forget that I, and organizations that I work with, and for, have routinely traded any POWs back to the Empire, POWs who were well cared for and fed while in our hands. Keep telling half the truth, I guess. It makes your arguments more sound. The treatment of anyone in such a fashion, Amarrian or Minmatar, outrages me. I do push against it; I want the entire war to end, remember? Oh, must have forgotten that too.

PIE is rubbing off on you, Aldrith. Pity. You were a reasonable, good man, once. You would have been just as outraged by Merdaneth's pompous, arrogant, ethnocentric pronouncement of "cleansing" as anyone a few short months ago. Now, you just repeat what you're told to repeat. Amarr Victor, I guess?

"There is no strength in numbers; have no such misconception." -Jayka Vofur, "Warfare in the North"
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#32 - 2013-01-09 17:23:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq
There you go again Ava, making assumptions and shooting your mouth off before thinking when a touchy subject is at hand. I'll forgive you because I am starting to get used to this habit of yours.

I am quite certain I never once condoned or condemned Merdaneth's original post. I merely pointed out that the TLF is not without its faults either, which actually suggests I do not approve of this conduct in Dal even if I did not explicitly state so. My personal opinions on the war have not changed at all, and I damn well sure have not forgotten about our prisoner exchanges. What I was doing was showing why I feel the need to conduct these exchanges in the first place.

Now, I'll give you a chance to rethink your little quip about me being a "good man, once" before I call your judgment flawed and presumptuous. Oh, and not to mention just a tad offensive.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Mitara Newelle
Newelle Family
#33 - 2013-01-09 18:49:58 UTC
Lord Merdaneth, you ignore these nay-sayers and go right on doing what should be done. As Mr Louvaki rightfully noted, we are dealing with Republic animals, and it is our duty to protect the non combatants from their savage influence, to show them the right way.

Ms Starfire, Commander Shutaq is a most reasonable and good man. He gave two and a half years of his life trying to reason with 'people' like you, which is two and a half years more than your kind deserve.

We will save the Matari from themselves.

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#34 - 2013-01-09 21:15:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyn Farel
Aldrith Shutaq wrote:
There you go again Ava, making assumptions and shooting your mouth off before thinking when a touchy subject is at hand. I'll forgive you because I am starting to get used to this habit of yours.

I am quite certain I never once condoned or condemned Merdaneth's original post. I merely pointed out that the TLF is not without its faults either, which actually suggests I do not approve of this conduct in Dal even if I did not explicitly state so. My personal opinions on the war have not changed at all, and I damn well sure have not forgotten about our prisoner exchanges. What I was doing was showing why I feel the need to conduct these exchanges in the first place.

Now, I'll give you a chance to rethink your little quip about me being a "good man, once" before I call your judgment flawed and presumptuous. Oh, and not to mention just a tad offensive.


Please do not see any offense in my question, I must admit that me, too, am genuinely a bit curious as to your defection to PIE Inc.
Mitara Newelle
Newelle Family
#35 - 2013-01-09 22:52:19 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:

Please do not see any offense in my question, I must admit that me, too, am genuinely a bit curious as to your defection to PIE Inc.

Defection?

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
Lucius Vindictus
Arachnos
#36 - 2013-01-09 23:38:33 UTC
Congratulations to the brave crusaders of the 24th!
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#37 - 2013-01-10 00:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Christine Peeveepeeski
Well, I'm torn on this. I have a duty to fufil and it turns out murdering my own kind constantly, over and over again is that duty. I'd rather not, if I'm honest but I have chosen the lesser of two evils believe it or not. I only hope that the crew I have killed died quickly.

So Dal, it was a success and one we have needed. The 3 days it took to turn it doesn't actually tell a full story, for at least a few weeks beforehand forces of the amarr militia that don't often get seen in the IGS applied constant pressure on Dal and the surrounding systems. Constantly we tried to push the system control with our small band of dedicated pilots past the all important 70% at the right time to get full support from the majority of the militia.

The most recent of which worked. We could not have flipped Dal alone and the assitance of militia corps and the 24th independants was very much appreciated.

It remains to be seen if we in the amarr militia can actually keep this impetus and regain the composure and strength that we were once apparently famous for. Looking at the floods of Gallente moving to our warzone because of their domination of the caldari this will be a hard fight over the next few weeks and months.

What I have seen is a glimpse that the amarr militia can work together across all timezones, when we do it is a force to contend with.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#38 - 2013-01-10 20:16:20 UTC
Mitara Newelle wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:

Please do not see any offense in my question, I must admit that me, too, am genuinely a bit curious as to your defection to PIE Inc.

Defection?


Yes, why ?
Aldrith Shutaq
Atash e Sarum Vanguard
#39 - 2013-01-10 20:18:55 UTC
Because I'm pretty sure that I did not betray anyone when I went to PIE. You seem to have used the wrong word there.

Aldrith Ter'neth Shutaq Newelle

Fleet Captain of the Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Lord Consort of Lady Mitara Newelle, Champion of House Sarum and Holder of Damnidios Para'nashu
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#40 - 2013-01-10 20:19:55 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Mitara Newelle wrote:
Lyn Farel wrote:

Please do not see any offense in my question, I must admit that me, too, am genuinely a bit curious as to your defection to PIE Inc.

Defection?


Yes, why ?


Defection is an odd word to choose for 'Moving laterally within the same greater organization'.

It would be correct to say that I defected to Sansha's Nation.

It would be technically correct, but really weird, to say that Aldrith Shutaq defected from the Knighthood of the Merciful Crown to PIE Inc, currently run by his wife.
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