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Warfare & Tactics

 
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The main FW topics Q1 2013

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X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#61 - 2013-01-08 18:13:01 UTC
FistyMcBumBasher wrote:

If there were no IHUB shoots then there would never be any use for dreads or carriers. The EHP of them makes the option for fights to escalate up from cruisers and BC's which used to be everywhere.
Not too worried about the IHUB mechanic tbh. Either way is ok.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#62 - 2013-01-08 18:16:42 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Sokor Loro wrote:
[ And frankly, tier 1 or even tier 2 produces pretty bad isk/hr. On that scale it's hard to ignore. I'd also like to see them remove tiers altogether, as our un-equal farming alt problem would likely go away.

They aren't great isk/hour but they are good enough to not have to take time away to farm - you can be available to pvp more and replace your ships at a decent rate. Which is what it's all about.

Personally, I don't really like the Tier system either. I think station lockouts are the key feature driving pvp.

Edit: Which I will expand upon here: Station lockouts not only provide incentive to protect home systems, but they also help restrict isk making ability of the other side through FW missions. This is large since the LP reward from a high sec station is much less than one from a low sec station. On that point, Damar is right in saying the two non-FW missions systems (Parts in Gallente space) should be removed or moved to FW space.
Sokor Loro
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2013-01-08 18:20:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Sokor Loro
Mutnin wrote:

This is the problem with FW is that it's become nothing but blob warfare and there is no real tactics out side of bring MOAR people. We already have that with null sec Sov war, we didn't need it with FW as well, which was one of the few places where small gang PVP was possible.


Small gang PvP happens all the time in all parts of the warzone.

This isn't WoW; if you want a nice 10v10, 5v5, w/e matchup, that is your game. Unlike most people, I won't trash you for playing it. To each his own.The problem is your definition of "Blob", and people bitching about it. "OMG we only have two people and you brought four, BLOBBERS!". "MOAR people" is a valid tactic and has been used since the beginning of EVE, and the beginning of time. It hasn't "become" this way, it has always been this way and it's simply not going to change. This game is about finding an advantages, manipulating it, and using it to fight on your terms.

Whining about, "The Blob" is an archaic, ignorant and cliche excuse that has never accomplished anything and never will. There is always a bigger fish. Learn to adapt.

X Gallentius wrote:
[quote=Sokor Loro]
They aren't great isk/hour but they are good enough to not have to take time away to farm - you can be available to pvp more and replace your ships at a decent rate. Which is what it's all about.

Personally, I don't really like the Tier system either. I think station lockouts are the key feature driving pvp.


That's true, I'm not saying you can't live with it. It's just an economy of time. And I definitely agree with the station lockouts.
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2013-01-08 18:24:41 UTC
T1 logi + T1 cruisers and a frig/dessie gang gets surprise buttsexed for sure. If you cant bring 15 cruisers then get friends. Being in corp that untill 2 days ago didnt have doctrines ( Kryten will hurt me if I say we don't do doctrines ) we found out that with the amarr organizing we might be forced to as well. We still prefer to just welp about untill we hear that, ive got someone tackled calll and we all rush to whore on it. Im usually to slow. Fw is about friends, and if mere numbers arent enough you organize and fight guerilla style. Trust me i am terrible at PvP, but at least I enjoy it.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#65 - 2013-01-08 19:50:29 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
...Edit: Which I will expand upon here: Station lockouts not only provide incentive to protect home systems, but they also help restrict isk making ability of the other side through FW missions...

Can see what you are getting at (consequence), but what is the point when/if a mechanic also acts as a reinforcement to the snowball effect making come-backs even less likely?

Not only is ones tier bottomed out but it is also nigh impossible to make any LP through the 'pure' PvE part of the equation .. FW sorely needs some way to make up for all those (much needed) consequences or we may well end up with the 2 militia's that the doomsayers (I am not included in that bunch, not that dark .. yet) predict, farming away "against" their own alts.

Tried pushing for a Roman Empire type of diminishing return, where keeping ones territory grew harder the bigger one got back after the FF presentation, and still think it is, if not the only way, then the best way to mitigate the effect of farmers on the war (assuming farmers stays because "CCP will not dictate how people should play" (CCPSW paraphrase)).
Adjust the tiers so that all things being equal, both sides of a conflict has 'normal' earnings at tier3, getting higher tier (and enemy lower) makes you more money but enemy gets a reduction in time needed to close a plex .. add a barracks/garrison entry to end of system upgrade path to lessen the time bonus by one notch (ie. each tier below 3 is one notch, f.ex. 15-20%).

Lots of hoops one can jump to limit farming as the primary driver of occupancy. Box is too crowded, go outside!
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#66 - 2013-01-08 19:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Sokor Loro wrote:
Mutnin wrote:

This is the problem with FW is that it's become nothing but blob warfare and there is no real tactics out side of bring MOAR people. We already have that with null sec Sov war, we didn't need it with FW as well, which was one of the few places where small gang PVP was possible.


Small gang PvP happens all the time in all parts of the warzone.

This isn't WoW; if you want a nice 10v10, 5v5, w/e matchup, that is your game. Unlike most people, I won't trash you for playing it. To each his own.The problem is your definition of "Blob", and people bitching about it. "OMG we only have two people and you brought four, BLOBBERS!". "MOAR people" is a valid tactic and has been used since the beginning of EVE, and the beginning of time. It hasn't "become" this way, it has always been this way and it's simply not going to change. This game is about finding an advantages, manipulating it, and using it to fight on your terms.

Whining about, "The Blob" is an archaic, ignorant and cliche excuse that has never accomplished anything and never will. There is always a bigger fish. Learn to adapt.

X Gallentius wrote:
[quote=Sokor Loro]
They aren't great isk/hour but they are good enough to not have to take time away to farm - you can be available to pvp more and replace your ships at a decent rate. Which is what it's all about.

Personally, I don't really like the Tier system either. I think station lockouts are the key feature driving pvp.


That's true, I'm not saying you can't live with it. It's just an economy of time. And I definitely agree with the station lockouts.



I'll tell yea what happened last time I visited your side of the war zone just a week or so back. I sat in Kurniainen for 2 and a half hours because the Oyonata gate had a rotating camp of 2 different Minmatar groups and 1 pie group. Every time I've flown down on that side of the war front it's always like this, just random camps at various gates with sensor boosted ships out the ass ships.

Very boring for someone that likes to hop in a Cruiser or BC and go for a roam. Adapt must mean stay in the station, because you sure aren't getting a Vexor past 15 guys that have a remote sensor boosted Arazu and 2 intys + all their DPS and 3 logistic ships.

This is why FW and largely this game has become boring, because no one can really go out and get real solo anymore unless you fly a frig. It's just a bunch of kill mail whores that don't really care about fights, but just if they can gank something or not and most of the PVP is gate camps out side of FW and now in FW it's just a bunch of frigs in plexes.

FW was the only place you could still take out a BC or cruiser and get some action solo, but now that's even ruined because the whole war revolves around frigs & dessies in plexes. Sorry but I didn't skill up 70 mil some odd skill points to fly frigs & dessies that I could fly with a 10 mil SP alt.

Also I'd never play WoW, DayZ is likely the only hardcore sandbox game out there at the moment. Hence the game I now play to get actual challenging solo PVP where it's up to the individual not the numbers.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#67 - 2013-01-08 20:06:11 UTC
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
We still prefer to just welp about untill we hear that, ive got someone tackled calll and we all rush to ***** on it.


I rest my case.. This is the exact thing that has ruined the PVP in this game, no one can do anything with out yelling HELP for all their 15 friends to come whore. No one can fight their own fights with out assurance they will win with over whelming numbers. No one plays for the challenge, it's all about playing for high score.
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#68 - 2013-01-08 20:22:30 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Sokor Loro wrote:
Mutnin wrote:

This is the problem with FW is that it's become nothing but blob warfare and there is no real tactics out side of bring MOAR people. We already have that with null sec Sov war, we didn't need it with FW as well, which was one of the few places where small gang PVP was possible.


Small gang PvP happens all the time in all parts of the warzone.

This isn't WoW; if you want a nice 10v10, 5v5, w/e matchup, that is your game. Unlike most people, I won't trash you for playing it. To each his own.The problem is your definition of "Blob", and people bitching about it. "OMG we only have two people and you brought four, BLOBBERS!". "MOAR people" is a valid tactic and has been used since the beginning of EVE, and the beginning of time. It hasn't "become" this way, it has always been this way and it's simply not going to change. This game is about finding an advantages, manipulating it, and using it to fight on your terms.

Whining about, "The Blob" is an archaic, ignorant and cliche excuse that has never accomplished anything and never will. There is always a bigger fish. Learn to adapt.

X Gallentius wrote:
[quote=Sokor Loro]
They aren't great isk/hour but they are good enough to not have to take time away to farm - you can be available to pvp more and replace your ships at a decent rate. Which is what it's all about.

Personally, I don't really like the Tier system either. I think station lockouts are the key feature driving pvp.


That's true, I'm not saying you can't live with it. It's just an economy of time. And I definitely agree with the station lockouts.



I'll tell yea what happened last time I visited your side of the war zone just a week or so back. I sat in Kurniainen for 2 and a half hours because the Oyonata gate had a rotating camp of 2 different Minmatar groups and 1 pie group. Every time I've flown down on that side of the war front it's always like this, just random camps at various gates with sensor boosted ships out the ass ships.

Very boring for someone that likes to hop in a Cruiser or BC and go for a roam. Adapt must mean stay in the station, because you sure aren't getting a Vexor past 15 guys that have a remote sensor boosted Arazu and 2 intys + all their DPS and 3 logistic ships.

This is why FW and largely this game has become boring, because no one can really go out and get real solo anymore unless you fly a frig. It's just a bunch of kill mail whores that don't really care about fights, but just if they can gank something or not and most of the PVP is gate camps out side of FW and now in FW it's just a bunch of frigs in plexes.

FW was the only place you could still take out a BC or cruiser and get some action solo, but now that's even ruined because the whole war revolves around frigs & dessies in plexes. Sorry but I didn't skill up 70 mil some odd skill points to fly frigs & dessies that I could fly with a 10 mil SP alt.



Dont blame the gatecampers, they are doing what they need to do to win

Blame the 250 guys in Amarr Militi chat not willing to form up 25 man fleet to take the camp down

The other day there was talk about getting a 30-40 man fleet up to push out a minnie fleet, but all that was talked about in chat was "whats the point? they will just run away and not fight"

ok......well thats still a win

but no one was willing to do it, i guess cuz it wouldnt pad there KB
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#69 - 2013-01-08 20:55:20 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
tl;dr I don't log in and play FW so I don't know what I'm talking about.
Fixed.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#70 - 2013-01-08 21:47:36 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Sokor Loro wrote:
Mutnin wrote:

This is the problem with FW is that it's become nothing but blob warfare and there is no real tactics out side of bring MOAR people. We already have that with null sec Sov war, we didn't need it with FW as well, which was one of the few places where small gang PVP was possible.


Small gang PvP happens all the time in all parts of the warzone.

This isn't WoW; if you want a nice 10v10, 5v5, w/e matchup, that is your game. Unlike most people, I won't trash you for playing it. To each his own.The problem is your definition of "Blob", and people bitching about it. "OMG we only have two people and you brought four, BLOBBERS!". "MOAR people" is a valid tactic and has been used since the beginning of EVE, and the beginning of time. It hasn't "become" this way, it has always been this way and it's simply not going to change. This game is about finding an advantages, manipulating it, and using it to fight on your terms.

Whining about, "The Blob" is an archaic, ignorant and cliche excuse that has never accomplished anything and never will. There is always a bigger fish. Learn to adapt.

X Gallentius wrote:
[quote=Sokor Loro]
They aren't great isk/hour but they are good enough to not have to take time away to farm - you can be available to pvp more and replace your ships at a decent rate. Which is what it's all about.

Personally, I don't really like the Tier system either. I think station lockouts are the key feature driving pvp.


That's true, I'm not saying you can't live with it. It's just an economy of time. And I definitely agree with the station lockouts.



I'll tell yea what happened last time I visited your side of the war zone just a week or so back. I sat in Kurniainen for 2 and a half hours because the Oyonata gate had a rotating camp of 2 different Minmatar groups and 1 pie group. Every time I've flown down on that side of the war front it's always like this, just random camps at various gates with sensor boosted ships out the ass ships.

Very boring for someone that likes to hop in a Cruiser or BC and go for a roam. Adapt must mean stay in the station, because you sure aren't getting a Vexor past 15 guys that have a remote sensor boosted Arazu and 2 intys + all their DPS and 3 logistic ships.

This is why FW and largely this game has become boring, because no one can really go out and get real solo anymore unless you fly a frig. It's just a bunch of kill mail whores that don't really care about fights, but just if they can gank something or not and most of the PVP is gate camps out side of FW and now in FW it's just a bunch of frigs in plexes.

FW was the only place you could still take out a BC or cruiser and get some action solo, but now that's even ruined because the whole war revolves around frigs & dessies in plexes. Sorry but I didn't skill up 70 mil some odd skill points to fly frigs & dessies that I could fly with a 10 mil SP alt.

Also I'd never play WoW, DayZ is likely the only hardcore sandbox game out there at the moment. Hence the game I now play to get actual challenging solo PVP where it's up to the individual not the numbers.


I've been getting lots of PvP in the Amarr area.
Minmatar (aka Hookbill murdering scum) do seem to like to fight and will even reship and comeback for revenge while you are still looting their wrecks.
The smaller warzone is also great - Cal/Gal warzone is a pain to get around compared to the Amarr/Minny zone.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Sokor Loro
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#71 - 2013-01-08 21:50:52 UTC
Mutnin wrote:

I'll tell yea what happened last time I visited your side of the war zone just a week or so back. I sat in Kurniainen for 2 and a half hours because the Oyonata gate had a rotating camp of 2 different Minmatar groups and 1 pie group. Every time I've flown down on that side of the war front it's always like this, just random camps at various gates with sensor boosted ships out the ass ships.

Very boring for someone that likes to hop in a Cruiser or BC and go for a roam. Adapt must mean stay in the station, because you sure aren't getting a Vexor past 15 guys that have a remote sensor boosted Arazu and 2 intys + all their DPS and 3 logistic ships.

This is why FW and largely this game has become boring, because no one can really go out and get real solo anymore unless you fly a frig. It's just a bunch of kill mail whores that don't really care about fights, but just if they can gank something or not and most of the PVP is gate camps out side of FW and now in FW it's just a bunch of frigs in plexes.

FW was the only place you could still take out a BC or cruiser and get some action solo, but now that's even ruined because the whole war revolves around frigs & dessies in plexes. Sorry but I didn't skill up 70 mil some odd skill points to fly frigs & dessies that I could fly with a 10 mil SP alt.

Also I'd never play WoW, DayZ is likely the only hardcore sandbox game out there at the moment. Hence the game I now play to get actual challenging solo PVP where it's up to the individual not the numbers.


No, it has always been this way. You're just complaining. You are complaining about being "blobbed" while you are out solo? Are you for real? Newsflash: EVE is a **** solo game, it always has been and it always will. Go play DayZ; it's a fun game. But cut the bullshit elitist mentality, nobody gives a **** about it, you, or your bitching.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#72 - 2013-01-08 22:59:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Sokor Loro wrote:

No, it has always been this way. You're just complaining. You are complaining about being "blobbed" while you are out solo? Are you for real? Newsflash: EVE is a **** solo game, it always has been and it always will. Go play DayZ; it's a fun game. But cut the bullshit elitist mentality, nobody gives a **** about it, you, or your bitching.


Perhaps when you started in 2011 it was already very blobby. When I started in 2009 It was very possible to fly around in BC's & Cruisers and get decent solo fights. The best fun I ever had in this game was just randomly taking my Vexor or Myrmidom out with no scout and just fighting what ever I came across. Yes there were blobs & gate camps, but it was nothing like it is today. I didn't even need a scout alt back then to fly a BC or cruiser like you pretty much have to have today.

It wasn't all rainbows & unicorns but it was a much better game due to the player base than what we have today where everyone is scared to fight with out some kind of advantage, be it numbers, better ship, booster what ever. It was just much easier to find decent fights away from the gangs.

EVE is a MMO it's a sand box, you trying to say it's not a solo game is like trying to say everyone should be forced to mine. A sand box means it's ok to play it how you want, be that mining, solo PVP or being the 50th guy on a 5 mil SP Merlin KM. To each there own, but what I'm saying is it used to be much more balanced in the ability to get that solo & small gang PVP vs today where all you find is guys that wont fight unless they have their 15 friends 1 jump away.

Also when I say solo I don't mean 1 vs 1 with equal ships. I have no problems fighting more than one target, those are some of the funnest fight, but it needs to be a reasonable fight. Not a gank of 15 vs 1, where there is zero chance of actually fighting back. You used to be able to get fights like that, but now it's just hoards of skill-less blobbers that need the safety net of numbers to protect their kill board stats.

Have you ever once attempted to challenge your self and fight with out the advantage of ship class & numbers to see what you can do or how far you can push the limits? I can tell you, win or lose it's always more satisfying than just being a number behind a large gang.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#73 - 2013-01-08 23:00:11 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
tl;dr I don't log in and play FW so I don't know what I'm talking about.
Fixed.

Fascinating, nay impressive, that you can boil that down to something that is neither true or even said ..

That post reads like something out of a third grade squabble, no content or relevancy, with the sole purpose seemingly being to indicate that you do not take kindly to being argued against.

Remember back in the day, when you joined the war before omni-present links and regular TZ determined blobbage, when we did it for fun and neither profit nor KB stuffing? That is what we the majority (ie. not you) want back, what we are debating and no amount of empty posts in defence of the broken status quo to keep the farms running is likely to change that.
Once CCP has statistically relevant metrics (LP/VP/Kills/etc.) for the December changes sometime in the spring, do you honestly believe there will be no tweaks or downright uprooting to/of existing mechanics?

Here is a challenge for you: Participate constructively.

NB: I shall likely never have the privilege of showing you the door in game as I steer clear of linked gank squads/fleets when out and about so smacking you around in a condescending manner here on the forums will have to do.

Now, let's get back to the business at hand and see if we can't compile a list of topics to discuss the coming year until CCP diverts their gaze back our way after null has been sorted/pacified.
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2013-01-08 23:26:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaalira D'arc
It is telling that the most vocal and prolific posters on this issue are players who aren't actively participating in the system, or who have already dismissed it out of hand.

I, too, can write up long polemics about high-sec mining, station trading, and C5 Sleeper loot balance. But my opinion would be worth less than that of the players who actually engage in those activities on a day to day basis. And rightfully so.

All this forum theory-crafting is about as painful as watching EFT warriors go at it. It's roughly the equivalent.
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#75 - 2013-01-09 00:09:14 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
We still prefer to just welp about untill we hear that, ive got someone tackled calll and we all rush to ***** on it.


I rest my case.. This is the exact thing that has ruined the PVP in this game, no one can do anything with out yelling HELP for all their 15 friends to come *****. No one can fight their own fights with out assurance they will win with over whelming numbers. No one plays for the challenge, it's all about playing for high score.



Bring something that can kill frigs??? If you worry about 5 frigs, then what would you do if we had like oooh scary destroyers. Dare to be bold., see if you can tackle that vigilant in your slicer ( lol ) When we don't fly solo we nearly always fly with 3-10 max. We make exceptions when we occiasionally fly with annah or ushra'khan, but you hardly see us in BS or BC and most of the time we fly fun small stuff.
Starting to think you don't want to fight to begin with.


My advice to your corp, fly something different from hookbills and caracals for a change.

As for amarr-minnies, both sides blob and blueball. Thats just part of the game. Fweddit/ yolo gang fly on a regular basis and are more than a match for what minnies can bring.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#76 - 2013-01-09 00:40:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Shaalira D'arc wrote:
It is telling that the most vocal and prolific posters on this issue are players who aren't actively participating in the system, or who have already dismissed it out of hand.

I, too, can write up long polemics about high-sec mining, station trading, and C5 Sleeper loot balance. But my opinion would be worth less than that of the players who actually engage in those activities on a day to day basis. And rightfully so.

All this forum theory-crafting is about as painful as watching EFT warriors go at it. It's roughly the equivalent.


If you thought about what you just said, perhaps you might figure out why some of us are no longer playing. Many of us find no interest in the existing status quo of what FW has become. I stuck with it for quite a while as I saw the change push it in a direction I didn't like where it was going. I tried it and didn't like it, now I've become vocal as to why the changes are bad, after allowing time to see what I already assumed would happen.

Just like when you Gal's used to ***** and whine all the time about down time plex advantage or EW NPCs. You guys complained for years about it and finally it was changed. You guys didn't plex at all or play the Sov War game because you felt it was broken. Hence the reason I no longer play FW because I feel it's broken and needs fixed.
Juan Rayo
Justified Chaos
#77 - 2013-01-09 01:04:12 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
Just like when you Gal's used to ***** and whine all the time about down time plex advantage or EW NPCs. You guys complained for years about it and finally it was changed. You guys didn't plex at all or play the Sov War game because you felt it was broken. Hence the reason I no longer play FW because I feel it's broken and needs fixed.


We didn´t stop playing tho.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#78 - 2013-01-09 01:36:47 UTC
Juan Rayo wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
Just like when you Gal's used to ***** and whine all the time about down time plex advantage or EW NPCs. You guys complained for years about it and finally it was changed. You guys didn't plex at all or play the Sov War game because you felt it was broken. Hence the reason I no longer play FW because I feel it's broken and needs fixed.


We didn´t stop playing tho.



Because not playing the Sov War affected your game in no way out side of bragging rights, at that time. You were not forced to play a broken part of the game in order to be able to dock in your home system.

See the difference?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#79 - 2013-01-09 02:28:46 UTC
We lived in Vlillirier, and had to fight tooth and nail for it in July.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#80 - 2013-01-09 03:23:59 UTC
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
We still prefer to just welp about untill we hear that, ive got someone tackled calll and we all rush to ***** on it.


I rest my case.. This is the exact thing that has ruined the PVP in this game, no one can do anything with out yelling HELP for all their 15 friends to come *****. No one can fight their own fights with out assurance they will win with over whelming numbers. No one plays for the challenge, it's all about playing for high score.



Bring something that can kill frigs??? If you worry about 5 frigs, then what would you do if we had like oooh scary destroyers. Dare to be bold., see if you can tackle that vigilant in your slicer ( lol ) When we don't fly solo we nearly always fly with 3-10 max. We make exceptions when we occiasionally fly with annah or ushra'khan, but you hardly see us in BS or BC and most of the time we fly fun small stuff.
Starting to think you don't want to fight to begin with.


My advice to your corp, fly something different from hookbills and caracals for a change.

As for amarr-minnies, both sides blob and blueball. Thats just part of the game. Fweddit/ yolo gang fly on a regular basis and are more than a match for what minnies can bring.


I remember blobbing these guys lol http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=13636927