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NBSI Nullsec = Fail

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EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#401 - 2013-01-08 07:06:22 UTC
Skydell wrote:
EVE history dictates otherwise. Alliances that lost the opening battles where they put their best on the line, always lose the war.

Remember when the NC, the biggest and baddest coalition in the game was pushing the DRF into Kalevala? That sure turned out well for them!
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#402 - 2013-01-08 07:07:41 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
example: red alliance being pushed into one station then dying


Better example: Doing a level 4 in a frigate. I can want to all I want, I can have 5000 frigates available to try. At the end of the day there will be 5000 frigate wrecks in a mission dead space because Gank beats tank and that mechanic is coded in to the game. It is an absolute. You can make it hurt a little more with PvP but the combat mechanics are the same. You won't effect change where change can't be effected.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#403 - 2013-01-08 07:10:26 UTC
EI Digin wrote:
Skydell wrote:
EVE history dictates otherwise. Alliances that lost the opening battles where they put their best on the line, always lose the war.

Remember when the NC, the biggest and baddest coalition in the game was pushing the DRF into Kalevala? That sure turned out well for them!


You are cherry picking your argument based on situations that seldom play out.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#404 - 2013-01-08 07:36:36 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Sov holders govern based on the game mechanics and which policies are most effective under them.

The game mechanics make NRDS and in-house industry an unviable alliance platform, which is why all the old NRDS alliances (except CVA) are dead.

If this were not true, selection of the fittest would mean that NRDS alliances would be the rulers of 0.0.


Then null players should stop crying about no industry in null when their play styles kill it.

When he says "the game mechanics make NRDS and in-house industry an unviable alliance platform", unsurprisingly what he actually means is that the game mechanics are to blame, not people.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#405 - 2013-01-08 07:39:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
See this is where the long time hi-sec player mentality comes in to play . . . He's entitled . . .


Quote:
What do you think they contribute when they're in MY SPACE?


Entitled, you say?


Yes, can you imagine the raw cheek of those nullseccers complaining that, after conquering an entire region and spending hundreds of billions of ISK on stations, they actually have the BALLS to complain that that ENTIRE REGION isn't as good as one hi-sec system in terms of number of manufacturing lines, research, refining?

Man that's super entitled of us. We think that spending thousands of man hours, hundreds of billions of ISK, more hundreds of billions on the stations themselves, living with the constant risk of losing the space, having to police our own space instead of having omnipotent NPCs do it for free... all of that should somehow entitle us to have as much manufacturing capability in an ENTIRE REGION as hi-sec gets for free, for no effort other than turning up and using it, in invulnerable stations that they can't be locked out of, in a single hi-sec system.

Tell the world how "entitled" we are, please do.



Well?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jamyl Khanid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#406 - 2013-01-08 07:45:54 UTC
Assume healthy game habits (if there is such a thing): 3 hrs a day

strong defense in EVE: 300 pilots with capital skills training.
8 play sessions in a day, 3 hrs long.

An Alliance that was determined to hold their space would need 2400 members from every time zone on the planet with a willingness and a desire to log in to EVE for 3 hrs a day like a duty shift. They would require the assets on hand to do that job and the back up asset to replace it.

Every variable you are missing in that ideal defense increases the chances you will get sacked by an enemy.
This is why most people in EVE will only pretend to want to have Sov but when push comes to shove, they will not ever make it happen or be one of the people willing to see it happen.

This is also why, deep down we all know it was always being done by CCP. The true logistics for Sov to happen in EVE, for ship building to happen in EVE for stuff like Outposts to happen in EVE require planning, years in the making. Planning that only gives a 50% that it won't all blow up in your face.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#407 - 2013-01-08 07:47:48 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Sov holders govern based on the game mechanics and which policies are most effective under them.

The game mechanics make NRDS and in-house industry an unviable alliance platform, which is why all the old NRDS alliances (except CVA) are dead.

If this were not true, selection of the fittest would mean that NRDS alliances would be the rulers of 0.0.


Then null players should stop crying about no industry in null when their play styles kill it.

How does that saying go? If your not willing to fight for something, you dont deserve to keep or have it in the first place.


How does a "playstyle" affect the number of outposts that can be deployed in a system, or the number of manufacturing lines those outposts can have, or the number of office slots?

I guess I am asking who do we have to stop shooting for player built outposts to stop being incredibly ****?

Thanks for your answer in advance,

yours in Christ


A poor sinner.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#408 - 2013-01-08 08:18:33 UTC
Skydell wrote:
EI Digin wrote:
Skydell wrote:
EVE history dictates otherwise. Alliances that lost the opening battles where they put their best on the line, always lose the war.

Remember when the NC, the biggest and baddest coalition in the game was pushing the DRF into Kalevala? That sure turned out well for them!


You are cherry picking your argument based on situations that seldom play out.

Most invasions fail. BoB won all their initial battles...

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#409 - 2013-01-08 08:52:44 UTC
Jamyl Khanid wrote:
Assume healthy game habits (if there is such a thing): 3 hrs a day

strong defense in EVE: 300 pilots with capital skills training.
8 play sessions in a day, 3 hrs long.

An Alliance that was determined to hold their space would need 2400 members from every time zone on the planet with a willingness and a desire to log in to EVE for 3 hrs a day like a duty shift. They would require the assets on hand to do that job and the back up asset to replace it.


Nope. It needs 300 players and the ability to click on an interface that sets Sov timers to come out in that 3 hour window (which is, conveniently, the size of the window you can set when setting up Sov structures).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#410 - 2013-01-08 08:56:40 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Sov holders govern based on the game mechanics and which policies are most effective under them.

The game mechanics make NRDS and in-house industry an unviable alliance platform, which is why all the old NRDS alliances (except CVA) are dead.

If this were not true, selection of the fittest would mean that NRDS alliances would be the rulers of 0.0.


Then null players should stop crying about no industry in null when their play styles kill it.

When he says "the game mechanics make NRDS and in-house industry an unviable alliance platform", unsurprisingly what he actually means is that the game mechanics are to blame, not people.

What a novel concept.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#411 - 2013-01-08 09:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Deklein, a region with 33 dropped outposts and 3 conquerable stations, has 414 station manufacturing slots. This costs tens of billions of ISK in monthly sovereignty bills to keep.

Itamo, a system two jumps from Jita, has 550 manufacturing slots. You only pay for their use, and their cost is hardly relevant (240k ISK to use a slot for a full month, lmao)

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#412 - 2013-01-08 10:00:37 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Andski wrote:
outpost=industry

See what you did there?

Goons gonna Goon . . .


So you don't actually have any idea what you're talking about? Figured as much.

Please tell me more about how POSes are supposed to be the backbone of industry in 0.0 with the ~5 slots offered by individual assembly arrays, and the added cost of running a POS

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#413 - 2013-01-08 10:06:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Oh and did I mention that there is no difference in the usage cost of a manufacturing slot in Jita and that of a manufacturing slot in the most deserted hisec island system? This is because unlike NPC station offices, whose fees are automatically set based on demand, manufacturing slot fees are totally static and the same in any NPC owned station. Isn't that wonderful?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#414 - 2013-01-08 10:08:05 UTC
Andski wrote:
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Andski wrote:
outpost=industry

See what you did there?

Goons gonna Goon . . .


So you don't actually have any idea what you're talking about? Figured as much.

Please tell me more about how POSes are supposed to be the backbone of industry in 0.0 with the ~5 slots offered by individual assembly arrays, and the added cost of running a POS


Don't forget the time overhead of setting the POS up, the ISk required to buy the POS and mods, and the constant need to keep it fueled whether you're using it or not.

Of course, all that pales in comparison with the incredible investment that hi-sec industrialists have to put in. It can take several minutes to scroll through all the available slots in Sobaseki, for instance. I guess we should be grateful we don't have to endure anything like that.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#415 - 2013-01-08 10:08:58 UTC
Minutes? Fah, seconds even!

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#416 - 2013-01-08 10:10:26 UTC
Andski wrote:
Oh and did I mention that there is no difference in the usage cost of a manufacturing slot in Jita and that of a manufacturing slot in the most deserted hisec island system?


Andski, it occurs to me that we've been greedy, selfish and thoughtless. The four office slots we get in Amarr sov outposts... we don't deserve that many. They should be removed and donated to the nearest NPC station so that anyone can use them.

After all, what use is an office slot in a manufacturing plant anyway? We should put in a Gallente Outpost if we want office slots, as CCP intended.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#417 - 2013-01-08 10:12:01 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Minutes? Fah, seconds even!


Wheras people manufacturing in POS can see all their slots on a single screen, without scrolling at all.

Talk about living the easy life!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#418 - 2013-01-08 10:12:54 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Of course, all that pales in comparison with the incredible investment that hi-sec industrialists have to put in. It can take several minutes to scroll through all the available slots in Sobaseki, for instance. I guess we should be grateful we don't have to endure anything like that.


Yeah, about two months ago I put 2700 T1 cruisers in build in Ansila, two jumps from Jita. I found 10 immediately available station slots for them and finding them was the worst nightmare ever. ~~~~~~o7 brave hisec industrial capsuleers~~~~~~

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#419 - 2013-01-08 10:18:53 UTC
Oh and it cost over two million ISK to put that 12bn of cruisers into build. How hideously expensive.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#420 - 2013-01-08 10:19:14 UTC
Andski wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Of course, all that pales in comparison with the incredible investment that hi-sec industrialists have to put in. It can take several minutes to scroll through all the available slots in Sobaseki, for instance. I guess we should be grateful we don't have to endure anything like that.


Yeah, about two months ago I put 2700 T1 cruisers in build in Ansila, two jumps from Jita. I found 10 immediately available station slots for them and finding them was the worst nightmare ever. ~~~~~~o7 brave hisec industrial capsuleers~~~~~~


I'm guessing the station fees must have been hundreds of thousands of ISK at least? Maybe even a million?

That kind of incredible financial burden really puts the cost of deploying dozens of outposts, TCUs, ihubs and paying the sov fees for a whole region into perspective. I guess we should count our blessings.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016