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A stab in the heart for solo players

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Author
Ad'Hakim Tahous
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#21 - 2011-10-24 00:09:40 UTC
Redactions to Jack Carrigan's reply

Jack Carrigan wrote:


........If you want to do PI in low sec, either set up out there, or cut a deal with an established group out there. The positives on this concept far outweigh the negatives. You can either bolster your Corp Wallet by doing this for your Corp, or you can bolster your own Wallet if you set it up on your own........




If low-sec operations do not appeal to you, the quote from Jack Carrigan's post certain applies.
1) You can rely on Traders and middle-market-makers to apply enough pressure on Bid/Ask pricing to exert influence on the levels of taxation that will be applied over time to import/export tariffs on P0 thru P2 production in low-sec
2) Watch the markets before/after the expansion to track price trends & adjust P3 & P4 high-sec production accordingly.
3) With time to spare before the expansion, you might consider seeking out the in-game chat channels w/ a focus on trade.... meet some high-end traders, learn the ropes, and explore setting up some L/T arrangements for PI mats you need.

And... if you are convinced that certain PI products are going to have their prices Utterly Borked for the weeks immediately following the expansion, perhaps a few steady & judicious Buy Orders might be worth consideration.

NOT being a smart ass w/ this final thought: If you are a producer, you have to be conversant with markets so just consider this.... Constants aren't, variables freeze, and Traders are Ferengi!

Best of luck. Ad'H
cap Mal
Defense Advanced Research Program Agency
#22 - 2011-10-24 01:09:35 UTC
All the butt hurt people complaining about the changes to PI are like people complaining that it isn't fair that they can't claim sov or mine the good moons in 0.0 solo or that they missed the t2 BPO lotteries.

It is all conjecture that this will be a pain in the ass for the solo player. There is a lot of space out there. Also, are you all expecting that they will leave it at this and not further change and evolve the whole thing? This is the whole point of DUST more or less in relation to EVE. There will be lots of opportunities for solo players to get a piece.

People with a brain, solo players with a brain, will realize that this is a great opportunity to both make money and have more rewarding game play. The game evolves and improves and changes. Sometimes you may find that the change is not to your liking, there is still a crap tonne of stuff to do otherwise. Deal wiz it.
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#23 - 2011-10-24 01:27:35 UTC
Does anyone besides me remember the "solo playerbase" complaining that they had to pay more for 1-man-corp pos fuel when Tyrannis came out, whining "doesn't ccp care about solo players?"

And then Level 5's were nerfed back to low-sec, and they cried "doesn't ccp care about solo players?"

And then Incursions were hard and required lots of friends to do and they cried "doesn't ccp care about the solo players?"

And now PI is being made more profitable for those who can control low-sec/those who can get on the good side of those who control low-sec, and they're crying "don't ccp care about us solo players?"



I think the solo players should really take a hint.
cap Mal
Defense Advanced Research Program Agency
#24 - 2011-10-24 01:43:39 UTC
Quote:

And now PI is being made more profitable for those who can control low-sec/those who can get on the good side of those who control low-sec, and they're crying "don't ccp care about us solo players?"



No one controls low sec. That is the beauty of it.
CCP Spitfire
C C P
C C P Alliance
#25 - 2011-10-24 06:59:36 UTC
Inappropriate and offtopic posts removed. Please keep the discussion civil.

CCP Spitfire | Marketing & Sales Team @ccp_spitfire

Gheng Kondur
Serva Fidem
#26 - 2011-10-24 07:31:02 UTC
The OP is right and the same applies to small corps too.

The only thing this really does is allow for setting up a big 'kick me' sign in low sec, and there are always people willing to do that.

0.0 and WH, fine, why should there be COs there already. But low sec which is supposed to be controlled by a faction (at least to some extent) that faction would give up tax rights and sit back to watch people blowing these things up. Might as well start calling low sec 0.0 without the sov system and protections that apply.

High Sec tax I don't like (who does like taxes) but my corp move to a low sec pos and PI is now on hold as the choice of multiple planatray launches or launching at least half a bill worth of kick me signs does not appeal.

I'll get there, it will just take longer, as long as CCP don't bring in more barriers
Via Shivon
#27 - 2011-10-24 08:57:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Via Shivon
Killstealing wrote:
remove empire PI


This!


Level 4 Missis
Producing
Trading
Pi

...sim eve with 99,9% secure not dieing
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
#28 - 2011-10-24 09:06:25 UTC
Gheng Kondur wrote:
... But low sec which is supposed to be controlled by a faction (at least to some extent) that faction would give up tax rights and sit back to watch people blowing these things up. Might as well start calling low sec 0.0 without the sov system and protections that apply ...

You are not very proficient in history, right? Prospectors were always private companies.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2011-10-24 09:53:29 UTC
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the PI changes will entail.

In no way will it stop solo operations, it will simply make them a bit more expensive (I doubt that they would be more challenging)

Here are the cases you will find yourself in:

1) Planet has no customs office two options:


  • Install your own customs office
  • Lauch payloads into deep space for collection instead


2) Planet has a customs office which you do not own (again two options)


  • Pay the fees set by the owner of the customs office
  • Lauch payloads into deep space for collection instead


3) Planet has your customs office in place


  • Set whatever fees you fancy
  • If attacked, either defend or abandon the structure


Whatever path you chose you can still work solo - the only downside is that if you don't have access to a customs office there is no way to actually get materials back down onto a planet for processing. But hey that's what highsec is for.
Pooping Bear
Widgets Anonymous
#30 - 2011-10-24 09:58:44 UTC
Shin'rohtak wrote:
The only thing that is changing is that someone has to put an office on that planet. Do it yourself or pay for a corp to set one up for you and protect it as well. Ya you'll pay what ever tax they setup. But its smaller than high sec if you find the right corp.


Yes, but the problem is that only ONE can be anchored PER PLANET. Which means that the more valuble planets are going to host an exceptionally larger amount of killmails... i.e. camps, roamers deciding to get a few custom office kills, and/or entire goddamn wars.

PI is now going to be on par with the contesting for moon resources. Granted, ther are a lot more planets of one type that moons with one type of material in them, but still.

Lowsec will now become closer in intensity (in terms of territorial fighting) as nullsec, but in terms of profitability against missions in highsec or ratting in nullsec will still be far inferior. So, lowsec will now become a purely industrial venture.

The solo player is not going to be able to do lowsec PI anymore.

Say they somehow manage to get their hands on a Customs Office BPC and all the materials, and they build it, and claim a planet and work their PI.

A few days later, a local corp or alliance blows it up and puts their own in. A few days later, another corp or allaince does the same thing. And then Goonswarm flies through and blows up all the offices in the system for LOLs.

Repeat.

If the Incursion/Faction Warfare requirement didn't exist, I'd be more OK with this. At least the Customs Offices would be more easily replenishable. However, CCP is now forcing people to do things that didn't end up as awesome as they had hoped in order to simply keep POSs running.

It's unfair, to say the least.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#31 - 2011-10-24 12:28:18 UTC
Pooping Bear wrote:
Shin'rohtak wrote:
The only thing that is changing is that someone has to put an office on that planet. Do it yourself or pay for a corp to set one up for you and protect it as well. Ya you'll pay what ever tax they setup. But its smaller than high sec if you find the right corp.


Yes, but the problem is that only ONE can be anchored PER PLANET. Which means that the more valuble planets are going to host an exceptionally larger amount of killmails... i.e. camps, roamers deciding to get a few custom office kills, and/or entire goddamn wars.

PI is now going to be on par with the contesting for moon resources. Granted, ther are a lot more planets of one type that moons with one type of material in them, but still.

Lowsec will now become closer in intensity (in terms of territorial fighting) as nullsec, but in terms of profitability against missions in highsec or ratting in nullsec will still be far inferior. So, lowsec will now become a purely industrial venture.

The solo player is not going to be able to do lowsec PI anymore.

Say they somehow manage to get their hands on a Customs Office BPC and all the materials, and they build it, and claim a planet and work their PI.

A few days later, a local corp or alliance blows it up and puts their own in. A few days later, another corp or allaince does the same thing. And then Goonswarm flies through and blows up all the offices in the system for LOLs.

Repeat.

If the Incursion/Faction Warfare requirement didn't exist, I'd be more OK with this. At least the Customs Offices would be more easily replenishable. However, CCP is now forcing people to do things that didn't end up as awesome as they had hoped in order to simply keep POSs running.

It's unfair, to say the least.


I fail to see the problem here.

Let's say you're the solo dude, doing his own thing and we come across your POCO. Now, we're already managing a few planets, and really just need one or two items off your planet. You also need stuff that we produce...

so, we have two (2) options really:
1. work together, come to some form of fair trade/use agreement.
2. blow your POCO away, and set up our own (adding *yet another* planet that we have to defend).

After a corp has a few planets, which do you think they'd rather do?

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

XXSketchxx
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#32 - 2011-10-24 14:24:01 UTC
Cyniac wrote:
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the PI changes will entail.

In no way will it stop solo operations, it will simply make them a bit more expensive (I doubt that they would be more challenging)

Here are the cases you will find yourself in:

1) Planet has no customs office two options:


  • Install your own customs office
  • Lauch payloads into deep space for collection instead


2) Planet has a customs office which you do not own (again two options)


  • Pay the fees set by the owner of the customs office
  • Lauch payloads into deep space for collection instead


3) Planet has your customs office in place


  • Set whatever fees you fancy
  • If attacked, either defend or abandon the structure


Whatever path you chose you can still work solo - the only downside is that if you don't have access to a customs office there is no way to actually get materials back down onto a planet for processing. But hey that's what highsec is for.



This is a really really good point and illustrates a good understanding of what CCP is trying to do with CO.

They are trying to make them an asset in relation to PI that you have to protect. Essentially, by interacting with a planet you are "claiming it." Guess what? Claims have to be defended. Now, PI has player interaction if you want to really "claim" said planet.

However, as noted, you can still deploy stuff to space. You can still "ninja" PI materials. Have your manufacture planets in high sec and ninja out the base stuff you extract and react on the planet (P1 items i thin k?). Is it more difficult than current status quo? Absolutely. But now there is one more thing to "claim" in low sec. And unlike high end moons, planets are not so great that 0.0 alliances will be coming in and claiming all of them. Rather, low sec corporations/alliances will be able to claim/fight over them.

This is actually a damn good move on CCP's part.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#33 - 2011-10-24 16:45:55 UTC
If the changes to customs offices bother you, you had better prepare yourself for next year. When DUST comes out, PI will be in the hands of the DUST mercs. The end result will eventually be that DUSTers control PI and thus outpost, POS, etc production. That is to say, the groundlings will indirectly control the sky kingdoms.
stoicfaux
#34 - 2011-10-24 17:05:21 UTC
Out of curiousity, how long will it take to setup and tear down a POCO? Will the cost of the POCO be low enough that it can just be added in as PI overhead on the balance sheets? And how likely is it that low-sec dwellers are the type to setup POCOs of their own in order to prevent a Planeteer from setting up a POCO just long enough to transport their PI goods out?

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Dietrich VonMirat
Mirat Transtellar
#35 - 2011-10-24 20:19:14 UTC
The concept of the player owned structure fits well within the existing Eve framework, both thematically and practically.

The OP is correct in that it will make low sec PI more difficult and/or more expensive for the solo player.

That doesn't make it wrong, however. Any "improvement" to the game necessitates change, and those changes will invariably benefit some aspects and hinder others. In this case the transition of planets from a "magic bag of endless coins" to actual contested property is a huge step forward for realism.

Does Eve cater slightly more toward collaboration and teamwork? Yes. So does capitalism, and so does life in general.  Solo players, by virtue of their existence, thrive on self reliance and adaptability.  These same traits will weather them through the storm until they find a new profit/risk balance with PI.
Lutz Major
Austriae Est Imperare Orbi Universo
#36 - 2011-10-24 20:54:34 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Out of curiousity, how long will it take to setup and tear down a POCO? Will the cost of the POCO be low enough that it can just be added in as PI overhead on the balance sheets? And how likely is it that low-sec dwellers are the type to setup POCOs of their own in order to prevent a Planeteer from setting up a POCO just long enough to transport their PI goods out?


Well according to the devblog and the materials needed, the material costs are _currently_ at or about 70 million.
Plus the BPC, which you get in FW fo 10M or through CONCORD LP store 20M

It's not exactly the build and tear down item.
DigDoug
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2011-10-25 05:58:52 UTC
There is great potential here for a lot of repercussions that probably haven't been considered.

IMO player owned customs offices should be tied directly into the soverignty system. Low sec should not have player owned offices. The tax rate for low sec and high sec should have a certain base which is then modified by your standings with the controlling faction.

In Null Sec the offices should be tied to sov structures and invulnerable following the same rules and system that is already in place for attacking ihubs, tcu's and outposts. This not only lends to greater stability in the PI system but it also just makes a whole lot of sense because it follows in the same path of what has already been done.
Alain Kinsella
#38 - 2011-10-25 09:48:23 UTC
Also need to remember that the link capacity is being raised a lot. This could make single-planet P3 chains viable again - especially in Low. Been thinking about this a lot (as one of the disappointed folks), and will need to check SiSi soon, but I'm beginning to be swayed by the advantages here.

Consider, if you're only generating 150-200 P3 or so each day, that's still within one CC launch (and only needs a CovOps to get it out, not a BR). That's much more economical for the starting player than the larger scale Low PI being done today.

Will it be more dangerous? Oh hell yes. But nothing ventured, nothing gained...

"The Meta Game does not stop at the game. Ever."

Currently Retired / Semi-Casual (pending changes to RL concerns).

Vorpheus
Three Sword Inc
#39 - 2011-10-25 10:04:17 UTC
i could guess that pandemic legion, after their claiming of the amamake system, are more than happy to allow you the usage of their customs-offices... for a price... see we just found out the truthness behind their acts in the minmatar lowsec... to increase the taxes... Pirate

Ring ring ring ring ring ring ring Pandemic phone
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#40 - 2011-10-25 12:55:18 UTC
XXSketchxx wrote:
Cyniac wrote:
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the PI changes will entail.

In no way will it stop solo operations, it will simply make them a bit more expensive (I doubt that they would be more challenging)

Here are the cases you will find yourself in:

1) Planet has no customs office two options:


  • Install your own customs office
  • Lauch payloads into deep space for collection instead


2) Planet has a customs office which you do not own (again two options)


  • Pay the fees set by the owner of the customs office
  • Lauch payloads into deep space for collection instead


3) Planet has your customs office in place


  • Set whatever fees you fancy
  • If attacked, either defend or abandon the structure


Whatever path you chose you can still work solo - the only downside is that if you don't have access to a customs office there is no way to actually get materials back down onto a planet for processing. But hey that's what highsec is for.



This is a really really good point and illustrates a good understanding of what CCP is trying to do with CO.

They are trying to make them an asset in relation to PI that you have to protect. Essentially, by interacting with a planet you are "claiming it." Guess what? Claims have to be defended. Now, PI has player interaction if you want to really "claim" said planet.

However, as noted, you can still deploy stuff to space. You can still "ninja" PI materials. Have your manufacture planets in high sec and ninja out the base stuff you extract and react on the planet (P1 items i thin k?). Is it more difficult than current status quo? Absolutely. But now there is one more thing to "claim" in low sec. And unlike high end moons, planets are not so great that 0.0 alliances will be coming in and claiming all of them. Rather, low sec corporations/alliances will be able to claim/fight over them.

This is actually a damn good move on CCP's part.


No it isn't. It shows a lack of understanding of how PI works. For example, how can someone in an npc corp, for example, that has PI set up in a neighboring low sec system with no POCO at the planet now lauch materials TO the planet for further refining?

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

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