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The Possible Coming Death of Small Gang PVP
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Gil Wallace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-01-06 12:41:06 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I have two solutions for this:

1. Implement a cyno interdictor which would prevent cynos from going up on grid when the module is active. It would only be on a new T2 battlecruiser and would commit you to the current fight with a 2 minute timer or something like that.

I like this idea from a high level standpoint as it would add strategy to fleet battles instead of just warp in, pop the cyno and insta bubble.

2. Reverse the Titan Bridge from a "Push" to a "Pull" The titan would still bridge to the cyno, but people would click on the cyno and appear next to the titan not the other way around.

I like this idea from a low level standpoint because it forces people to commit a titan if they want to hot drop someone thus getting more titans into danger.

Actually I like these two ideas together because the titan could be a counter to a fleet using the cyno interdictor. A titan could warp into the fleet and then open a bridge pulling his entire fleet through, and since the cyno dictor only stops cynos, the enemy fleet couldnt do anything about it.



Thanks for a possible work around in part one and like I said I like the idea of them having to commit their titan and its possible loss to the battle. As it stands now they really have nothing to loose and everything to gain. If they had to risk that titan and the billions of isk it cost to build maintain and support it maybe they would think twice about using it to bridge in blops on ppl. Yet looking at it from the stand point of game dynamics as well as from quickest possible solution to implement for CCP it would be all NPC space is non titan bridgeable. An you will notice I did not say non-cynoable. That still leaves them plenty of other ways to get gangs into these areas. I personally and about 4 others I fly with would actually love to see it so that the titan has to commit and it has to stay for a period of time before it can leave so that those in the area have the opportunity to kill it. Yes I am sure tons of small gangers would put aside their differences for a nice titan kill.
Nyancat Audeles
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-01-06 16:15:15 UTC
reamau wrote:
Why would any large blob even bother to attack small gangs? Not worth the time it takes to get organized. Sitting in a blob is boring enough already, waiting to do something- most would not even go.




Ask the Goons that recently hotdropped their 50 man fleet of Recon, Heavy Interdictor, and Command ships on our 4 person fleet of cheap T1 frigates and cruisers
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#23 - 2013-01-06 22:12:25 UTC
Nyancat Audeles wrote:
reamau wrote:
Why would any large blob even bother to attack small gangs? Not worth the time it takes to get organized. Sitting in a blob is boring enough already, waiting to do something- most would not even go.




Ask the Goons that recently hotdropped their 50 man fleet of Recon, Heavy Interdictor, and Command ships on our 4 person fleet of cheap T1 frigates and cruisers



The answer to this is simple.

'because [they] can'
Felix Oskold
Dark Tranquility.
#24 - 2013-01-08 01:04:28 UTC
Sigras wrote:
I have two solutions for this:

1. Implement a cyno interdictor which would prevent cynos from going up on grid when the module is active. It would only be on a new T2 battlecruiser and would commit you to the current fight with a 2 minute timer or something like that.

I like this idea from a high level standpoint as it would add strategy to fleet battles instead of just warp in, pop the cyno and insta bubble.

2. Reverse the Titan Bridge from a "Push" to a "Pull" The titan would still bridge to the cyno, but people would click on the cyno and appear next to the titan not the other way around.

I like this idea from a low level standpoint because it forces people to commit a titan if they want to hot drop someone thus getting more titans into danger.

Actually I like these two ideas together because the titan could be a counter to a fleet using the cyno interdictor. A titan could warp into the fleet and then open a bridge pulling his entire fleet through, and since the cyno dictor only stops cynos, the enemy fleet couldnt do anything about it.


+1, getting a 50 man gang bridged onto your 6 man T1 frig gang gets old very quickly

People complain about how OGB's can give boosts with 0% risk from inside a POS. Yet Titans can completely swing the odds of a battle with the same risk as an OGB. These are the only two ships (as far as I know) that can sit inside a POS and perform the task with 100% efficiency. Ask anyone and they will agree that boosting from inside a POS needs to be changed, yet why does everyone have a different view on titan bridges?
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#25 - 2013-01-08 01:22:35 UTC

As Rynnik stated, Titan Bridges haven't eliminated small gang PvP yet... so why are they going to now?

Also, while dropping a 30 man gang on a 6 man gang is unfair to the 6 man gang.... How do you propose destroying that 10 man gate camp that only engages solo pilots coming through a gate?

Hot drops are not ideal in my opinion, but I'm not certain what the solution is! I personally like the idea that a titan must follow the bridge into system at the end of a bridge... but I don't think this will solve everything you think it will....

Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-01-08 02:16:17 UTC
Fighting titan-bridging fleets isn't too difficult. Anyone with some experience in PvP or living in low/0.0 will quickly understand several key factors:

1) Some alliances are better known to hot drop than others and are therefore easier to avoid;
2) Unsure? Look up the KB of your potential target(s) and check for recent or general hot-dropping activity;
3) Still unsure? What kind of ship is it? Multi-point ship like an Arazu, or perhaps a heavy tank ship flying around solo? Probably safer to assume it's a cyno;
4) Still want to go for it? Please do... get an interceptor to point + hold the target whilst the rest of your fleet applies DPS from range. Now watch the cyno ship die or drop the cyno + fleet on nothing... because your interceptor will get out and your DPS fleet is not in point range of anything.

I personally love option 4. It doesn't address the core issue you raised but at least it gives you some interim options to fight under the current circumstances.

With regard to titan bridging, there are several forum topics discussing this - Forum Search is your friend.

Good luck.
Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-01-08 03:19:33 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:


2000 man blob working as intended.. the fact that a Titan can drop the blob on you doesn't put the fault on the Titan... if you ran into that blob without a bridge... you would be moaning about something else.

Only other person who has posted in the thread so far and you have to quote the op's entire wall of text?? THAT IS NOT HOW YOU POST.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#28 - 2013-01-09 01:03:19 UTC
Making bridges into a pull instead of a push would be an interesting change. I do rather detest how many titans spend 99% of their time in a POS, and maybe 1% of their time dipping 5% of their hull our of a POS in order to bridge someone.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-01-09 03:17:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
If you only have 3-6 people and you're getting bridged by 50 what exactly are you going to be using to kill the titan, if you get your way and the titan has to come through the bridge too?

How many heavy dictors do you typically have in your 3-6 man gang? (Not that it will matter when there are 50 guys shooting you).

This is not risking the Titan unless you are baiting it and prepared to counter bridge but then we're not in small gang territory anymore are we? (If you are prepared for this then chances are you were prepared to do it for whatever you found you couldn't kill with 3-6 and faulting other people for things you are doing is really not cool. Not to say YOU (OP) are doing this but I find it hard to believe that anyone ready to counter bridge would not bridge onto anything they found without a specific and predictable target in mind).

Titan bridges are not new and while I have been dropped a few times I've never actually been killed by it because I refuse to fully commit when I suspect someone is packing a cyno and baiting me. Assuming you can hold them with a long point once they start to get low they will drop the cyno and you can disengage before anyone gets a hold of you. Bridging has not killed small gang combat yet and there's no reason to suspect it will soon or ever.

The suspicion that everyone affiliated with a large alliance has a cyno and is waiting to bridge to you is exaggerated just like low sec entry systems being camped. It's not completely false hence the reputation, but it's certainly not completely true either.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Samuel Wess
Doomheim
#30 - 2013-01-09 04:36:52 UTC
I would like Cyno to not be instant anymore, give it a 30 seconds onlining cooldown,
and make it posible to have it ready before engaging but a ship having an onlined
cyno should have some tag making it easier to spot.


Walk into the club like "What up? I got a big cockpit!"
Sigras
Conglomo
#31 - 2013-01-12 05:50:48 UTC
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
If you only have 3-6 people and you're getting bridged by 50 what exactly are you going to be using to kill the titan, if you get your way and the titan has to come through the bridge too?

How many heavy dictors do you typically have in your 3-6 man gang? (Not that it will matter when there are 50 guys shooting you).

This is not risking the Titan unless you are baiting it and prepared to counter bridge but then we're not in small gang territory anymore are we? (If you are prepared for this then chances are you were prepared to do it for whatever you found you couldn't kill with 3-6 and faulting other people for things you are doing is really not cool. Not to say YOU (OP) are doing this but I find it hard to believe that anyone ready to counter bridge would not bridge onto anything they found without a specific and predictable target in mind).

any trip outside the POS shield bubble is a risk no matter how small.

Cynoing into potentially hostile space is a big risk

any amount of risk > no risk which is how much it faces when sitting in a shield bubble

Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
Titan bridges are not new and while I have been dropped a few times I've never actually been killed by it because I refuse to fully commit when I suspect someone is packing a cyno and baiting me. Assuming you can hold them with a long point once they start to get low they will drop the cyno and you can disengage before anyone gets a hold of you.

but this is the point!
How many people dont even bother because they constantly fear the hot drop?

How many fleets have you let get away because you couldnt be sure it was ok to engage?

hot dropping reduces PvP opportunities and makes people shy away from PvP
Vyger
Hooker Squad
#32 - 2013-01-12 06:05:01 UTC
If titan bridges were going to kill small gang PVP it would have happened a long time ago when the bridging mechanic was introduced. Nothing to see here. Move along.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#33 - 2013-01-12 07:44:57 UTC
Gil Wallace wrote:

The answer is simple. The Alliances and their titan bridges are about to kill small gang pvp

True.

The only thing worth mentioning is the saturation rate - most people are not that intelligent and usually deny a problem until it starts kicking their own ass, should it be titan bridge or rotten political system IRL. So don't be surprised that some still deny detrimental effect titans cause - they just don't see things outside of their own nutshell.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
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