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Galente / Hybrid Fixing the problem without destroying the balance.

Author
Amaldor Themodius
TUR3O
#1 - 2011-10-22 00:34:20 UTC

Ok this forum post is part suggestion and part plea on how I would like to see CCP resolve the hybrid / Galente buff issue. Having flown Galente vessels since 2006 I have seen them evolve over a period of years. Any changes need to be done to ensure that they retain their racial characteristics without infringing on the strengths of other nations. So my suggestions are:

Hybrids
I don't see hybrids as the problem I think if anything they need a damage buff to give them a DPS edge so that the time they invest in a fight closing range / tackling their prey can be recovered. A buff on tracking is needed to ensure they can effectively land their damage against foes that are in range. No range change is required and indeed should be avoided at all costs as this is a core characteristic that differentiates hybrids from projectile and energy weapon types. Note these buffs would also keep the Caldari hybrid vessel users happy as they are sorely in need of extra DPS and Tracking.

Example of buff:
Optimal Range: No Change
Fall Off: No Change
Damage: + 10% - 15%
Tracking: + 15 - 20%

Galente Ships
I would like to see all Galente ships given an acceleration bonus and an agility bonus. IE they should be able to very quickly hit their top speed and be very effective at manoeuvring. The added agility and acceleration would present them the opportunity to tackle potential prey before without infringing on the Minmatar racial strength of speed.

Example of buff:
Agility: +10% - 15%
Acceleration Rate: +30% - 50%





Goose99
#2 - 2011-10-22 01:16:39 UTC
Amaldor Themodius wrote:

Ok this forum post is part suggestion and part plea on how I would like to see CCP resolve the hybrid / Galente buff issue. Having flown Galente vessels since 2006 I have seen them evolve over a period of years. Any changes need to be done to ensure that they retain their racial characteristics without infringing on the strengths of other nations. So my suggestions are:

Hybrids
I don't see hybrids as the problem I think if anything they need a damage buff to give them a DPS edge so that the time they invest in a fight closing range / tackling their prey can be recovered. A buff on tracking is needed to ensure they can effectively land their damage against foes that are in range. No range change is required and indeed should be avoided at all costs as this is a core characteristic that differentiates hybrids from projectile and energy weapon types. Note these buffs would also keep the Caldari hybrid vessel users happy as they are sorely in need of extra DPS and Tracking.

Example of buff:
Optimal Range: No Change
Fall Off: No Change
Damage: + 10% - 15%
Tracking: + 15 - 20%

Galente Ships
I would like to see all Galente ships given an acceleration bonus and an agility bonus. IE they should be able to very quickly hit their top speed and be very effective at manoeuvring. The added agility and acceleration would present them the opportunity to tackle potential prey before without infringing on the Minmatar racial strength of speed.

Example of buff:
Agility: +10% - 15%
Acceleration Rate: +30% - 50%







Won't solve a thing. You didn't change specs that matter, aka, speed, etc. You'll never catch a kiting ship by going slower than it, with rang gap between blasters and acs being what it is. And 10% of rail dps and 15% of rail tracking is pathetic.
Tristan North
The Scope
#3 - 2011-10-22 01:35:54 UTC
Maybe is better to buff the top speed.
Amaldor Themodius
TUR3O
#4 - 2011-10-22 01:42:39 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
Amaldor Themodius wrote:

Ok this forum post is part suggestion and part plea on how I would like to see CCP resolve the hybrid / Galente buff issue. Having flown Galente vessels since 2006 I have seen them evolve over a period of years. Any changes need to be done to ensure that they retain their racial characteristics without infringing on the strengths of other nations. So my suggestions are:

Hybrids
I don't see hybrids as the problem I think if anything they need a damage buff to give them a DPS edge so that the time they invest in a fight closing range / tackling their prey can be recovered. A buff on tracking is needed to ensure they can effectively land their damage against foes that are in range. No range change is required and indeed should be avoided at all costs as this is a core characteristic that differentiates hybrids from projectile and energy weapon types. Note these buffs would also keep the Caldari hybrid vessel users happy as they are sorely in need of extra DPS and Tracking.

Example of buff:
Optimal Range: No Change
Fall Off: No Change
Damage: + 10% - 15%
Tracking: + 15 - 20%

Galente Ships
I would like to see all Galente ships given an acceleration bonus and an agility bonus. IE they should be able to very quickly hit their top speed and be very effective at manoeuvring. The added agility and acceleration would present them the opportunity to tackle potential prey before without infringing on the Minmatar racial strength of speed.

Example of buff:
Agility: +10% - 15%
Acceleration Rate: +30% - 50%







Won't solve a thing. You didn't change specs that matter, aka, speed, etc. You'll never catch a kiting ship by going slower than it, with rang gap between blasters and acs being what it is. And 10% of rail dps and 15% of rail tracking is pathetic.



Response:
1 - Any change to speed is an unnecessary infringement on the racial strengths of Minmatar. In regards to being kited well it could happen but if you are suggesting a buff to make them super fast, uber dps, armour tankers then I don't think that's a balanced suggestion. Not all ships should be capable of doing all things so imho this is where pilot skill becomes an element ie making a decision to engage. If the buffed acceleration gets you in tackle range then you will probably get a kill against a lightly armoured kiting vessel if not then you may use the acceleration / agility to try and escape.

2 - Regarding the value of the buff on DPS and tracking well the amounts i suggested are really just nominal values perhaps they need to be more or less I'm not really intending to make a sweeping statement. I guess my point here was ONLY tracking and DPS should be buffed, optimal range and fall off should remain unchanged.
Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
#5 - 2011-10-22 02:18:44 UTC
Why make a stronger gun shoot less far?

Hybrids need more tracking and better falloff, if I can hit the kiting ship at 24 km I'd be happy, even if it's not much.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.   Peace out Zulu! Hope you land well!
Amaldor Themodius
TUR3O
#6 - 2011-10-22 02:30:43 UTC
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
Why make a stronger gun shoot less far?

Hybrids need more tracking and better falloff, if I can hit the kiting ship at 24 km I'd be happy, even if it's not much.


1- Not suggsting it should shoot "lees far" im advocating no change to range

2 - Well if u must use a hybrid at that range then it should be a railgun or use a projectile or energy weapon but if your suggestion is to extend the range of blasters to 24 km then.. that sounds like u want to make them the same as the other weapon types in the game. Making all weapons perform the same makes the game less enjoyable not more enjoyable because it eliminates the strategic capability of a pilot to choose / make tactical decisions.. Ie choosing to fly a blaster boat should be done with full knowledge that it wont have the capability to fight at range. Just as the decision to fit out say a beam zealot will leave u vulnerable to a fast moving enemy vessel in tight orbit because u cant track it..

Vetruvius Valinor
Doomheim
#7 - 2011-10-22 03:17:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Vetruvius Valinor
It's not so much the Hybrid weapons as it is the ships, and their bonuses, that fit them. I've always thought the problem with Hybrids couldn't be solved in a single change for them all. They really need to be looked at separately.

Blasters DPS is fine. What they need is a slight buff to tracking, not much and that's about it. The rest of the changes for Blasters need to come from the Ships themselves. A speed bonus and/or possible extended tackle range would be wonderful for boats meant to fit blasters.

Rails on the other hand need a boost to both tracking and DPS. They are just not as effective at equivalent ranges compared with other ranged weapons in the game. Tracking and DPS buffs can bring them closer to even.

Most of this can be done to Gallente ships, with only minimal changes needed to the actual weapons themselves.

The thing that needs to be done to both is reducing the requirements needed to fit all hybrid weapons. It's just to much when compared to other weapons in the game.
Amaldor Themodius
TUR3O
#8 - 2011-10-22 03:41:34 UTC
Vetruvius Valinor wrote:
It's not so much the Hybrid weapons as it is the ships, and their bonuses, that fit them. I've always thought the problem with Hybrids couldn't be solved in a single change for them all. They really need to be looked at separately.

Blasters DPS is fine. What they need is a slight buff to tracking, not much and that's about it. The rest of the changes for Blasters need to come from the Ships themselves. A speed bonus and/or possible extended tackle range would be wonderful for boats meant to fit blasters.

Rails on the other hand need a boost to both tracking and DPS. They are just not as effective at equivalent ranges compared with other ranged weapons in the game. Tracking and DPS buffs can bring them closer to even.

Most of this can be done to Gallente ships, with only minimal changes needed to the actual weapons themselves.


Sounds like we agree..
Sanguine Belroth
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2011-10-22 13:51:47 UTC
I agree with the proposal. What we don't want is something that makes blasters like high damage autocannons - leave gallante ships with the role they have, high damage short range. But they do need that extra tracking so that they can apply said damage. EFT warriors like myself have always liked them on paper, but they struggle in "reality". Give them a bump, but not so much that that everyone will start flying daredevils all the time like they do god-damned dramiels
Cpt Fina
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2011-10-22 14:04:28 UTC
I wish CCP would buff hybrids in small incremental steps rather then a one time enourmous overhaul and then turn a blind eye towards the balance discussion for a couple of years, like they've done in the past.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#11 - 2011-10-22 14:41:28 UTC
minmatar and kiting won't be impacted too much by gallente getting faster... whilst either leaving agility alone, or reducing it a bit.

It was mentioned in one of the other "how to fix hybrids" threads around here -- make Gallente FAST but damn near impossible to turn at speed ... so if you go to ludicrous speed, and overshoot the guy... slow down, turn around, try and catch him again...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#12 - 2011-10-22 15:12:05 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
minmatar and kiting won't be impacted too much by gallente getting faster... whilst either leaving agility alone, or reducing it a bit.

It was mentioned in one of the other "how to fix hybrids" threads around here -- make Gallente FAST but damn near impossible to turn at speed ... so if you go to ludicrous speed, and overshoot the guy... slow down, turn around, try and catch him again...

That would/does suck, especially with short range weapons.


Better to increase agility so that you can accelerate faster, whilst not having the top speed of Minmatar.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

Amaldor Themodius
TUR3O
#13 - 2011-10-24 04:24:46 UTC
To keep the momentum on this lets get some likes brosefs..
Blastcaps Madullier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-10-24 04:48:32 UTC
think we all agree rails need a serious damage buff, in comparison to other factions long range weapons like missiles lasers and projectiles, using rails leaves you feeling like your using pea shooters, personaly like rails but the damage on them sucks to the point you might as well be using pea shooters

agreed blasters damage is fine, but maybe increase the range a LITTLE other than that they seem reasonably fine as they are, mostly it's just rails sucking badly at damage
Selar Nox
#15 - 2011-10-24 13:00:24 UTC
A first note: I am not aware of all the "Buff Hybrid" threads and therefore its possible the following was already mentioned.

I also agree, that it's not the weapon system that needs adjustments, it's the ship that uses it.

And I also like the idea of faster accelerating ships, that don't touch the domain of Minmatar Ships. So we cannot just change the agility value. And btw, big, heavily armored ships and high agility seems an odd combination.

My suggestion would be to make the Gallente something like the Masters of MWD. Thorax, Deimos and Vindicator already hint that the Federation has its knowledge in this field.

Hm, how to combine these requirements (faster acceleration without touching agility; MWD)?

As we know, an active MWD adds mass to our ship. (Details)
And higher mass means lower acceleration and speed.

So how about Gallente Ship Bonus to...

... decrease Mass Gain by MWD
Results while MWD is active:

  • improved acceleration
  • higher top speed
  • higher agility (can be countered by an agility malus while MWD is running)

So now we have a ship that when using MWDs accelerates better and can reach higher speeds than before, but has trouble adjusting the direction it is burning. Not the best for orbiting/kiting (Hurray for Minmatar!) and now we come to the problem Velicitia,Pattern Clarc & others here already mentioned: Overshooting your target.

... control/avoid overshoot better/easier

  • reduce cycle time of MWDs -> allows shorter MWD-pulses
  • reduce cap need per cycle -> overall cap cost keeps as it is now

Overshooting is still possible, but now it depends more on player skill than cycle time.

Other suggestion (possible, but not necessarily mandatory)
  • bonus on webifier range (faction mods already show, that the federation is quite capable in this field)

  • Overall result:
    Gallente ships can close the gap to the enemy faster to get in blaster range and avoid being hit for too long without an ability to strike back. And all this without touching the agility/speed(-tank) domain of Minmatar ships and similar.
    Kiting still works, as Gallente ships don't have their agility.
    X Gallentius
    Black Eagle5
    #16 - 2011-10-24 13:22:22 UTC
    Dumb idea time: How about removing cap dependency on hybrids and adding cap dependency on projectiles.

    Blasters would still be able to apply damage at short range even though they are getting neuted all to hell.
    Autocannons could still kite.

    Rails would stay in a fight for a long time and apply dps
    Projectiles could still alpha the crap out of everybody, but wouldn't be able to hang around forever.

    Would something like this be a good enough buff/nerf to get everything back in line?
    Iam Widdershins
    Victory or Whatever
    #17 - 2011-11-08 02:43:52 UTC
    X Gallentius wrote:
    Dumb idea time: How about removing cap dependency on hybrids and adding cap dependency on projectiles.

    Blasters would still be able to apply damage at short range even though they are getting neuted all to hell.
    Autocannons could still kite.

    Rails would stay in a fight for a long time and apply dps
    Projectiles could still alpha the crap out of everybody, but wouldn't be able to hang around forever.

    Would something like this be a good enough buff/nerf to get everything back in line?

    Minmatar rely HEAVILY on capacitor to maintain their speed, which is synonymous with both their survivability and their presence on the field. Plus, it doesn't make sense with the idea of what these guns ARE, anyway.

    Lobbying for your right to delete your signature

    Naomi Knight
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #18 - 2011-11-08 07:56:47 UTC
    Iam Widdershins wrote:
    X Gallentius wrote:
    Dumb idea time: How about removing cap dependency on hybrids and adding cap dependency on projectiles.

    Blasters would still be able to apply damage at short range even though they are getting neuted all to hell.
    Autocannons could still kite.

    Rails would stay in a fight for a long time and apply dps
    Projectiles could still alpha the crap out of everybody, but wouldn't be able to hang around forever.

    Would something like this be a good enough buff/nerf to get everything back in line?

    Minmatar rely HEAVILY on capacitor to maintain their speed, which is synonymous with both their survivability and their presence on the field. Plus, it doesn't make sense with the idea of what these guns ARE, anyway.

    Minmatar this minmatar that , maybe just maybe minmatar has way too many advantages and no real disatvantages at all.