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Why the excessive range on logistics?

First post
Mesh Marillion
Fairlight Corp
Rooks and Kings
#61 - 2013-01-07 09:54:07 UTC
Something people should keep in mind, especially when they watch the BR from Notoras is that the game has changed a lot in the last years. Basicly every fleet has long range webs, at least out to 35 (fed navies on a loki without heat/ganglinks) up to 100 k. Webs and painters are the nemesis of a logi, negating its ability to speed/sigtank. At that point with the current powercreep in alpha/dps you get quickly to a point where even our kaboose fit gets tested to its limits and quite often breaks. I do realize that this problem is slightly less prevalent with a lot of shield comps that tend to stay at range anyway. Still, with the higher speed chances are also higher that the fleet spreads out further. You could counter that with anchoring up but that puts the whole requiring more skill argument ad absurdum.

However the op should ask himself why T3 logis never really made their breakthrough. I remember fighting Shadow Cartel about a year or so ago. They had a very nice group of tengu logis that tanked really well. However one web on one logi and the whole group was pinned down. Reps broke cause not everybody reacted in time (which is, in fairness, really difficult once you run a fleet that is larger than a couple of people). Short range reps also ties your whole fleet down to the speed of the slowest ships cause you lose the ability to contract and extend your fleet coverage across the grid.

There are counters against logis, some are more effective, some less. People have experimented with damps, bonussed and unbonussed ecm, ecm drone, neuts and simple alpha. The Notoras fight was really tight for a while cause our cap chains kept dropping. If you see Rokkisys guardian drop rather late in the fight after some dps had already been cleared from the field, this happened exactly because ECM was overwhelming the logi group. Even though we knew he was dying we couldn't muster enough reps to keep him afloat.
While i can understand that fighting against logi supported gangs can be frustrating, they can make up for really interesting tug of wars, even though that has declined in the age of alpha. Still, that frustration can be experienced when fighting against any force using one or more force multipliers. Still there are huge differences how one can apply those factors and the level of experience and efficiency between different logi groups is sometimes staggering. The same applies to the ability of a group to apply damage effectively as well, btw.

Generally the problem with people on the forum making suggestions for buffs and nerfs is that they tend to view the game just from their perspective rather than trying to look at it from different angles. What seems to be unbalanced in solo pvp might be ok in fleet warfare and vice versa and its pretty difficult to alway hit the right spot designwise. However cutting down range on logis by 50 % or more is just going to increase the DPS powercreep that has really started to get rolling with the tier 3 BCs but also with much tighter doctrines being used across eve.
#62 - 2013-01-07 10:09:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Kitty Bear wrote:

until dec 4th there used to be a counter to logistic ships, an often disregarded and overlooked counter

the Cerberus had a massive sniping range for a reason, now it really does desperately need that future possible T2 rebalance Sad

Yeah because cerberus range was ever needed to counter logis? Range limitation just turns everything into a face to face slog and is very boring. This applies for dps, tackle, ewar and logi.
Lukas Flamesword
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#63 - 2013-01-07 10:44:59 UTC
CCP. DONT NERF LOGI. we dont need another doomed ship type. like titans. currently they are just a "mobile" jump bridge. dont make carriers ship transporters/ammo refilers (they already do that too often. dont make it the only use)
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2013-01-07 15:31:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinaculus
OP...I'm sorry. Logistics are going to become more common rather than less. Pre Retribution I could fly a Guardian in PvP if I wanted to run Logi, and that was about it. Often corps would have to buy a player a Logi ship just to get them to fly it (or use some other incentive). Logi pilots had to bring combat drones (not really their role) just to get on killmails, so the player could say they got something out of the evening's play time.

Post Retribution....Wow!

T1 Logi ships are actually useful! All of them! Even the frigates!
I get bounties just for being in fleet and on-grid! Logi is no longer "charity!"
There's enough variety of Logi fits that they can be used in a variety of engagement sizes, from duo to small-gang, to giant fleet slug matches!

So, get used to Logi ships actually being around and start working out ways to counter them. It's going to get far more common.

I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs.

Aston Martin DB5
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2013-01-07 16:59:54 UTC
slap on a MWD and aggro the ship, problem solved.