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When are they going to fix the HORRIBLE collision detection?

First post
Author
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#1 - 2013-01-06 22:17:39 UTC
Seriously, this is embarassingly bad, especially in places like asteroid belts. If you're in the middle of a bunch of collidable objects, asteroids etc you can't even tell which way to go, you just keep bumping around unable to warp or move untill you randomly pick the right direction to get out. All this while your ship is visually no where near hitting anything. It hasnt killed me yet but it is only a matter of time. When it does happen, I'm going to be pissed. It would be better not to have collision at all than this mess. You can shoot thru collidable objects anyways, so they are nothing more than scenery. So cheesy and one of my biggest immersion breakers.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2 - 2013-01-06 22:21:21 UTC
…so don't get so close to the asteroids?

Anyway: when someone figures out a way to solve the same scale problems without compromising performance. Also, because causality bubbles are cool. P
Cat Troll
Incorruptibles
Sugar. Affiliates
#3 - 2013-01-06 22:21:26 UTC
Posting in a stealth nerf miner bumping thread.

Lolwut: "Yes, you kids don't know how lucky you have it. These days noobs get given free tackle ships for PvP but back in the old days the only tackle ships we were given were our pods. We had to use them to bump their rookie ships out of alignment to stop them warping off."

Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#4 - 2013-01-06 22:21:32 UTC
Hit detection is a group of spheres. Maybe when rocks and stations get v3ed, they will try and tighten the bubbles when and if they modify the geometry. Otherwise, wtf are you doing in the middle of a belt?
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#5 - 2013-01-06 22:29:40 UTC
Proper hit detection? and los based off of 'updated' non spherical hit boxes? Yes please!
Katie Frost
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2013-01-06 22:30:30 UTC
Jealousy Asques wrote:
...unable to warp or move untill you randomly pick the right direction to get out.


Pro-piloting tip: Away from the asteroid is usually the way to go.



Horsus Benj
Millenia Flux
#7 - 2013-01-06 22:32:41 UTC
The bump mechanics for titans is unspeakably bad. How does a noob ship sitting still bump a titan to 100 m/s in spite of it being visually 5km away lol?
iskflakes
#8 - 2013-01-06 22:41:35 UTC
The collision in EVE is very 2003, and it's evident to new players who are used to seeing flawless collision of high poly models in other games. If EVE is to stay relevant technologically this should be worked on by whichever team works on the EVE engine. The most obvious issues that come to mind are:

* Titans bumping each other and on towers, despite not actually intersecting the tower/other titan
* Hundreds of titans being inside each other without bumping, until one gets shot out at crazy speed
* Ships bumping off the gate they're warping to at 0 (only happens on the small amarr gates)
* Bumping being better than a warp disruptor for stopping another ship warping out
* Bumping on stations when jumping in

To fix this CCP would need to start sending orientation information to the client, which they currently don't (ships don't even have orientations, it's all just made up client side). This wouldn't be a big performance problem as various developers have stated before that EVE's performance is not bandwidth bottlenecked. There's nothing stopping them modernizing this.

-

NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2013-01-06 22:42:52 UTC
Horsus Benj wrote:
The bump mechanics for titans is unspeakably bad. How does a noob ship sitting still bump a titan to 100 m/s in spite of it being visually 5km away lol?

Pure Strong Envy.
Jealousy Asques
The Seventh Circle
#10 - 2013-01-06 22:47:51 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:
Jealousy Asques wrote:
...unable to warp or move untill you randomly pick the right direction to get out.


Pro-piloting tip: Away from the asteroid is usually the way to go.





I know this... but it doesnt excuse incredibly cheesy design flaws.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#11 - 2013-01-06 22:49:33 UTC
iskflakes wrote:
The collision in EVE is very 2003, and it's evident to new players who are used to seeing flawless collision of high poly models in other games.
…games that still have to handle far fewer collision calculations than EVE does.

So again, how would you handle it on the scale of EVE without massive drops in performance.

Quote:
To fix this CCP would need to start sending orientation information to the client, which they currently don't (ships don't even have orientations, it's all just made up client side). This wouldn't be a big performance problem as various developers have stated before that EVE's performance is not bandwidth bottlenecked. There's nothing stopping them modernizing this.
…aside from the fact that the client has no need for the orientation information; and that using it would serve no purpose without a complete rewrite of everything that would cause pretty huge performance hits.
Pewty McPew
EVE Corporation 2357451
#12 - 2013-01-06 22:49:45 UTC
Katie Frost wrote:
Jealousy Asques wrote:
...unable to warp or move untill you randomly pick the right direction to get out.


Pro-piloting tip: Away from the asteroid is usually the way to go.





Pro tip #2: Orbit the asteroid to begin with. (Taking a Mackinaw into the middle of a crowded asteroid field is like taking a hooker to church, no good will come of it)
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-01-06 23:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
That's a good point about collision detection, actually.

I mean, yeah, performance is a consideration. But considering there's tons of games out there where dozens if not more people are shooting each other with weapons that have rates of fire at or above 400-800 rpm, and those same games have per-polygon collision detection between players and the environment (and the environment itself is often fully or partially destructible by those projectiles) as well as projectile physics (bullet drop, windage, spread, etc). EVE should have much better collision detection, considering it's only between ships and other collidable objects. It's not like the game has line of sight or projectile collision mechanics to it.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-01-06 23:12:31 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
That's a good point about collision detection, actually.

I mean, yeah, performance is a consideration. But considering there's tons of games out there where dozens if not more people are shooting each other with weapons that have rates of fire at or above 400-800 rpm, and those same games have per-polygon collision detection between players and the environment (and the environment itself is often fully or partially destructible by those projectiles) as well as projectile physics (bullet drop, windage, spread, etc). EVE should have much better collision detection, considering it's only between ships and other collidable objects. It's not like the game has line of sight or projectile collision mechanics to it.

the issue becomes, you now have to calculate and remember complex geometry for the MILLIONS of items strewn around eve, instead fo the just couple hundred in most fo those games. and m,ost fot hsoe games only calculate short term as arenas are only in existence as long as their mdoels are bing used.

eve however has 7500 systems each with multiple hundreds of entities. the spheres were chosen because it gives a basic physical presence of the entities without requiring complex shapes, its all just "bubbles". adding geometry to all these items woudl give a SIGNIFICANT performance hit as Tippia stated.


basically, dont expect anything liek this until CCP's budget doubles for their server farms, they are allowed 3-4 years to rewrite and bugtest the new physics engine, and the playerbase GETS OFF THEIR AS AND BUYS NEW FREAKIN COMPUTERS, XP is dead folks, time to upgrade to something that can handle DX11, your ruining my game with your DX9 bs.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#15 - 2013-01-06 23:16:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
That's a good point about collision detection, actually.

I mean, yeah, performance is a consideration. But considering there's tons of games out there where dozens if not more people are shooting each other with weapons that have rates of fire at or above 400-800 rpm, and those same games have per-polygon collision detection between players and the environment (and the environment itself is often fully or partially destructible by those projectiles) as well as projectile physics (bullet drop, windage, spread, etc). EVE should have much better collision detection, considering it's only between ships and other collidable objects. It's not like the game has line of sight or projectile collision mechanics to it.


Its more about what you don't see. The skills, the modules, the ship bonuses, the gang links along with the easier to see speed, angle, range, size, times a few hundred in a given grid. Eve could likely handle more processes such as line of site, yet not on the expected grand scale. Eve is built for blobs, as well as the external 3ed person. Projecting your path to also worry about friendly fire while exciting on paper I think would prove excruciatingly exhaustive with all the other things you have to track already.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#16 - 2013-01-06 23:17:19 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
basically, dont expect anything liek this until CCP's budget doubles for their server farms, they are allowed 3-4 years to rewrite and bugtest the new physics engine, and the playerbase GETS OFF THEIR AS AND BUYS NEW FREAKIN COMPUTERS, XP is dead folks, time to upgrade to something that can handle DX11, your ruining my game with your DX9 bs.
…not that the DirectX version on the client would make any difference in this case.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2013-01-06 23:28:52 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
That's a good point about collision detection, actually.

I mean, yeah, performance is a consideration. But considering there's tons of games out there where dozens if not more people are shooting each other with weapons that have rates of fire at or above 400-800 rpm, and those same games have per-polygon collision detection between players and the environment (and the environment itself is often fully or partially destructible by those projectiles) as well as projectile physics (bullet drop, windage, spread, etc). EVE should have much better collision detection, considering it's only between ships and other collidable objects. It's not like the game has line of sight or projectile collision mechanics to it.

the issue becomes, you now have to calculate and remember complex geometry for the MILLIONS of items strewn around eve, instead fo the just couple hundred in most fo those games. and m,ost fot hsoe games only calculate short term as arenas are only in existence as long as their mdoels are bing used.

eve however has 7500 systems each with multiple hundreds of entities. the spheres were chosen because it gives a basic physical presence of the entities without requiring complex shapes, its all just "bubbles". adding geometry to all these items woudl give a SIGNIFICANT performance hit as Tippia stated.


basically, dont expect anything liek this until CCP's budget doubles for their server farms, they are allowed 3-4 years to rewrite and bugtest the new physics engine, and the playerbase GETS OFF THEIR AS AND BUYS NEW FREAKIN COMPUTERS, XP is dead folks, time to upgrade to something that can handle DX11, your ruining my game with your DX9 bs.


No offense, but when you try to sound knowledgeable without any knowledge, you just make a fool of yourself...Roll

The server does not "calculate and remember" millions of items strewn around eve, just whatever's in instance (yes, "grid" is insteance) where there are ppl. There is no"physics engine" in eve.

Other mmos do far more, and consume far higher bandwidth than Eve. What's holding eve back isn't any legitimate barrier that also holds back other mmos, but the goofy coding they wrote in 2003 on charity budget that devs already admitted to not knowing how they work or what to do with. It's a pathetic case of can of worms/orphan codes that nobody wants to open.
Veronica Kerrigan
VKCorp 2.0
#18 - 2013-01-06 23:34:21 UTC
As I recall hearing from CCP that the primary reason hit detection is so bad is that each object is encased within a sphere that determines its collision detection. Because very few objects in eve are remotely spherical, there are large portion of many objects and ships that have collision detection far outside of their view model. If each ship instead had 2 spheres that determined collision, the resources needed to determine if something is bumping into something else in a large fleet fight doubles, 3 spheres it triples and so on. Most of the time it would have no impact, but new features need to work on a small scale, and in a 2000 person battle that is stressing the server to breaking point.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#19 - 2013-01-06 23:34:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
sabre906 wrote:
The server does not "calculate and remember" millions of items strewn around eve, just whatever's in instance (yes, "grid" is insteance) where there are ppl. There is no"physics engine" in eve.
Is that so…?

Quote:
What's holding eve back isn't any legitimate barrier that also holds back other mmos, but the goofy coding they wrote in 2003 on charity budget that devs already admitted to not knowing how they work or what to do with. It's a pathetic case of can of worms/orphan codes that nobody wants to open.
…except that they have opened it and done things on a number of occasions. Also, what is this supposedly “legitimate barrier” for other MMOs that doesn't apply to EVE? Oh, and the difference in bandwidth has a lot to do with other games trusting the client to do certain things, which EVE does not (because it's a bad idea in this kind of game) and because they need to keep all that in synch more often than EVE does.
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#20 - 2013-01-07 00:12:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
iskflakes wrote:
The collision in EVE is very 2003, and it's evident to new players who are used to seeing flawless collision of high poly models in other games.
…games that still have to handle far fewer collision calculations than EVE does.

So again, how would you handle it on the scale of EVE without massive drops in performance.

Quote:
To fix this CCP would need to start sending orientation information to the client, which they currently don't (ships don't even have orientations, it's all just made up client side). This wouldn't be a big performance problem as various developers have stated before that EVE's performance is not bandwidth bottlenecked. There's nothing stopping them modernizing this.
…aside from the fact that the client has no need for the orientation information; and that using it would serve no purpose without a complete rewrite of everything that would cause pretty huge performance hits.



Pretty much any change CCP makes causes massive drops in performance, so how would this be different?

Signature removed - CCP Eterne

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