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NBSI Nullsec = Fail

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#241 - 2013-01-05 21:19:12 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
You know, Murk, there comes a stage in a discussion where it really is less embarrassing to concede that you were in error about a point you were making than it is to try and defend it against overwhelming evidence.

You have gone past that stage.




Just FYI.



Thanks for the information, but when you want to build a case based on things not implemented yet and then cite them as facts, it doesn't really make you more "right" =P.

Just a FYI for you too sir.

The point being, right now my stance is it isn't broken, because people have adapted. If you base things on player creation, crying to devs makes it a weak argument.

Being a part of a discussion isn't really a "right or wrong" unless you post something like a year old dev blog that never happened and then say it "should" have.

It's cool to try to assume I'm a highsec carebear and I'm the one crying, but when you plant a seed and want it to be a tree, and ends up being a vine, you adapt or cut it down.

CCP has done neither. Therefore, they might simply be going with it since if it was that big of a deal, then why hasn't it been implemented?

Hell, they revamped the entire concord/crimewatch aspect. If you want to tell me how wrong I am because I play a game as I see fit and use what is given to me, fine.

But just because I don't jump on your tearfilled bandwagon isn't going to make things any better or convince anyone else you are more right, I simply do not care =)

No matter what changes happen or don't happen, I am still going to roam in null, and low and maybe every now and then go into highsec.


Period.

It isn't a cry, it isn't a defeat, or a victory. I am not competing with you. I am merely discussing a point of view about how a game matures regardless of what a dev envisions a year ago, or 5 years ago, or a decade ago.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#242 - 2013-01-05 21:19:46 UTC
Are we there yet?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#243 - 2013-01-05 21:22:39 UTC
Looks like highsec is still "better".

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#244 - 2013-01-05 21:22:44 UTC
What we have here is a failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.



Then you get what we have here today.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#245 - 2013-01-05 21:26:03 UTC
NBSI is still a deterrent for industry regardless (trying to stay back on topic =P). NBSI is a shoot first ask questions later... which in a land of hostility, that's not very inviting to people to want to bring their goods, or themselves, out to you. Therefore, people will stay safe where they have that control.

I think we had a merging of topics.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#246 - 2013-01-05 21:28:26 UTC
Nope, NBSI isn't a deterrent to industry. It's a deterrent to joe random idiot flying into our space and selling his wares in our space, but it isn't a deterrent to industry.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#247 - 2013-01-05 21:30:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Lord Zim wrote:
Nope, NBSI isn't a deterrent to industry. It's a deterrent to joe random idiot flying into our space and selling his wares in our space, but it isn't a deterrent to industry.



If I fly a freighter into your system to transport goods and I'm neutral, what is likely to happen to me? Using NBSI versus NRDS doctrines? Oh and joe random idiot flying into your space is also considered "industry" by the way.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#248 - 2013-01-05 21:30:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Murk Paradox wrote:
NBSI is still a deterrent for industry regardless (trying to stay back on topic =P). NBSI is a shoot first ask questions later... which in a land of hostility, that's not very inviting to people to want to bring their goods, or themselves, out to you. Therefore, people will stay safe where they have that control.

not really, nullsec's lack of industrial capacity is a deterrent to industry, regardless of RoE
then again I'm explaining this to the guy who says things couldn''t broken because that would mean CCP was capable of design error so w/e
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#249 - 2013-01-05 21:30:42 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Nope, NBSI isn't a deterrent to industry. It's a deterrent to joe random idiot flying into our space and selling his wares in our space, but it isn't a deterrent to industry.



If I fly a freighter into your system to transport goods and I'm neutral, what is likely to happen to me? Using NBSI versus NRDS doctrines?

Which part of my statement was unclear?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#250 - 2013-01-05 21:32:37 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Nope, NBSI isn't a deterrent to industry. It's a deterrent to joe random idiot flying into our space and selling his wares in our space, but it isn't a deterrent to industry.



If I fly a freighter into your system to transport goods and I'm neutral, what is likely to happen to me? Using NBSI versus NRDS doctrines?

Which part of my statement was unclear?



All of it. You contradicted yourself. Freighting is industry. Industry isn't only manufacturing. Same goes for mining as well.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#251 - 2013-01-05 21:34:15 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
NBSI is still a deterrent for industry regardless (trying to stay back on topic =P). NBSI is a shoot first ask questions later... which in a land of hostility, that's not very inviting to people to want to bring their goods, or themselves, out to you. Therefore, people will stay safe where they have that control.

not really, nullsec's lack of industrial capacity is a deterrent to industry, regardless of RoE
then again I'm explaining this to the guy who says things couldn''t broken because that would mean CCP was capable of design error so w/e



Not really? Not really what?

You aren't explaining anything, only contributing to the problem, not the solution.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#252 - 2013-01-05 21:40:35 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
NBSI is still a deterrent for industry regardless (trying to stay back on topic =P). NBSI is a shoot first ask questions later... which in a land of hostility, that's not very inviting to people to want to bring their goods, or themselves, out to you. Therefore, people will stay safe where they have that control.

not really, nullsec's lack of industrial capacity is a deterrent to industry, regardless of RoE
then again I'm explaining this to the guy who says things couldn''t broken because that would mean CCP was capable of design error so w/e



Not really? Not really what?

You aren't explaining anything, only contributing to the problem, not the solution.
I'll break it down for you.

1) "NBSI is still a deterrent for industry regardless (trying to stay back on topic =P)". - not really, because industry cannot exist in nullsec regardless of RoE policy. That's like saying running a blow torch in the desert will deter ice from forming.

2) "NBSI is a shoot first ask questions later... which in a land of hostility, that's not very inviting to people to want to bring their goods, or themselves, out to you." - not really because people who have arranged blue standings outperform NRDS alliances.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#253 - 2013-01-05 21:41:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Lord Zim wrote:

Except CVA has done this. How many people run around there to take advantage of this, and how many of the people who live in CVA space treat it as NBSI anyways, regardless of whether or not it's "NRDS"?


I am not sure why not NBSI == NRDS. Where did I mention NRDS?
My idea is an hybrid. Neuts would still be shot on sight. *Credited* let's call them "light blue" would not.
Certainly without some game mechanics to aid that, the work be quite daunting, but hey, you should start pushing for "treaties" and other additions *before* or together the POS revamp. Because POSes will have to include those missing bits, asking for them later will take another 10 years.


Quote:

Except we'll still be looking at maelstroms costing 2k to make, which means we're looking at a manufacturing cost of 0.00095% of the finished product.

If they'd changed that into a fee based on the mineral value of the thing being made and other minor tweaks of this nature, they could also easily create sufficiently large isk sinks to make up for the isk surplus flowing into the economy at this point and they'd open up the door even further for bottom up financing in nullsec.


Well, as I said above in another reply, I proposed in the locked thread to implement research and manufacturing costs tied to actual POS slots cost per hour. This would mean that the 333 ISK per hour of today would become 14k or more.

Plus, the "overhead" to cost is not really *that* important as long as it's something evenly distributed and not making any sec worthless. I have no idea how much a null sec alliance would charge per slot though, so I can't say numbers.

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#254 - 2013-01-05 21:49:55 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
NBSI is still a deterrent for industry regardless (trying to stay back on topic =P). NBSI is a shoot first ask questions later... which in a land of hostility, that's not very inviting to people to want to bring their goods, or themselves, out to you. Therefore, people will stay safe where they have that control.

not really, nullsec's lack of industrial capacity is a deterrent to industry, regardless of RoE
then again I'm explaining this to the guy who says things couldn''t broken because that would mean CCP was capable of design error so w/e



Not really? Not really what?

You aren't explaining anything, only contributing to the problem, not the solution.
I'll break it down for you.

1) "NBSI is still a deterrent for industry regardless (trying to stay back on topic =P)". - not really, because industry cannot exist in nullsec regardless of RoE policy. That's like saying running a blow torch in the desert will deter ice from forming.

2) "NBSI is a shoot first ask questions later... which in a land of hostility, that's not very inviting to people to want to bring their goods, or themselves, out to you." - not really because people who have arranged blue standings outperform NRDS alliances.



Outperform? Sounds like justification for NOT wanting more people around you. Look, if you want a closed off empire, then yea, NBSI is definitely a more ideal doctrine to have. It's way easier to be lazy and less vigilant when you shoot anything not a friendly.

But as a whole to people who don't know anyone in that area, it's not a real good encouragement to have people move out there. At best, you'll have someone roam out there, get popped, and never go out there again.

Cool, working as intended. But that also proves the original point in this thread before we took off on a tangent with it.

NBSI is a failed doctrine unless you don't want people around you. If you think someone is a spy, or someone is out to get you, yea, go NBSI. But all it's doing is alienating whatever progress you are trying to make as a whole, for null, as opposed to your own governed space.

In regards to all that, it wouldn't matter anyways because chances are, one of the bigger coalitions would move to encompasse ALL of null as their own since one of the reasons they haven't already is because "alot of null is worthless" space. Change that, and the dynamics of sov null might be in for a serious remodeling by those same said larger alliances.

Which is where I was taking industry into the picture. Use tech moons as a guide if you will.

You want performance? That's where it'll come from. Borders won't stay the same if industry or any other serverside mechanic changes the value of nullspace. You will either have those coalitions split up (which I want) or you have a much much much larger consolidation of forces to take over a much larger % of null as their own.

NBSI, while ideal for hostile areas, aren't good for areas you want to develop to be more "open" and inviting to other people to come help populate.

Atleast that's my opinion of being in CTA space, sov space, and npc null.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2013-01-05 21:55:51 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
Nope, NBSI isn't a deterrent to industry. It's a deterrent to joe random idiot flying into our space and selling his wares in our space, but it isn't a deterrent to industry.

If I fly a freighter into your system to transport goods and I'm neutral, what is likely to happen to me? Using NBSI versus NRDS doctrines?

Which part of my statement was unclear?

All of it. You contradicted yourself. Freighting is industry. Industry isn't only manufacturing. Same goes for mining as well.

Do you think I even remotely care about joe random idiot waltzing into our space without even so much as a by your leave? No, I don't. I care about industry being done in our space, performed by our people, for our people. If joe random idiot isn't such an idiot he'd make sure he had blue status prior to trying to sell his wares, problem solved.

Here's an idea, take your freighter and run into whatever is CVA's core market hub. It's NRDS, right? According to your logic, that should mean you should be defended and arrive and be able to leave completely unmolested. Tell us how that goes for you.

Murk Paradox wrote:
NBSI, while ideal for hostile areas, aren't good for areas you want to develop to be more "open" and inviting to other people to come help populate.

You seem to have completely ignored the fact that what we've been arguing for hasn't been to bring "other people" to come help populate, it has been to bring our people to come help populate.

Our people. Not joe random chucklefuck, our people.

You know, the guys who are currently in hisec instead, because hisec outperforms nullsec.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#256 - 2013-01-05 22:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Lord Zim wrote:
You seem to have completely ignored the fact that what we've been arguing for hasn't been to bring "other people" to come help populate, it has been to bring our people to come help populate.

Our people. Not joe random chucklefuck, our people.

You know, the guys who are currently in hisec instead, because hisec outperforms nullsec.


You seem to have completely ignored this thread is not the other thread, the topic here is about alliance politics vs outsiders so, no, you talking about insiders is not on topic.

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#257 - 2013-01-05 22:03:21 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I am not sure why not NBSI == NRDS. Where did I mention NRDS?
My idea is an hybrid. Neuts would still be shot on sight. *Credited* let's call them "light blue" would not.
Certainly without some game mechanics to aid that, the work be quite daunting, but hey, you should start pushing for "treaties" and other additions *before* or together the POS revamp. Because POSes will have to include those missing bits, asking for them later will take another 10 years.

Pray tell, how would this be done, then?

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Well, as I said above in another reply, I proposed in the locked thread to implement research and manufacturing costs tied to actual POS slots cost per hour. This would mean that the 333 ISK per hour of today would become 14k or more.

At 0.0024% or whatever of the mineral cost for building a maelstrom, that's still pathetic. Try something more along 0.25% of resource value of whatever it is you're making and up, and you're starting to get somewhere.

Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Plus, the "overhead" to cost is not really *that* important as long as it's something evenly distributed and not making any sec worthless. I have no idea how much a null sec alliance would charge per slot though, so I can't say numbers.

0.0024% of a maelstrom wouldn't give nullsec much room to work with for fees. Remember, we're looking to do bottom up financing of alliances here, not pissing into the wind.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#258 - 2013-01-05 22:05:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
You seem to have completely ignored this thread is not the other thread, the topic here is about alliance politics vs outsiders so, no, you talking about insiders is not on topic.

NBSI isn't what's depopulated nullsec, or has "caused nullsec to fail", no matter how much you or Murk tries to fob it off as the cause.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Mirima Thurander
#259 - 2013-01-05 22:15:24 UTC
Really with the amount of systems goons/test have they could set a few key locations NBSI and everything elected free ports and NRDS.


But that makes the game to fun for everyone. It will never happen.

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#260 - 2013-01-05 22:17:14 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
Really with the amount of systems goons/test have they could set a few key locations NBSI and everything elected free ports and NRDS.


But that makes the game to fun for everyone. It will never happen.

freeport delve