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Why the excessive range on logistics?

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YuuKnow
The Scope
#1 - 2013-01-05 14:48:12 UTC
Call me a whiner, and at the expected protest of the logi's, but why did CCP grant such an excessive rep range to all the logistic ships in the game? Seems like it makes maneuvering and mobility less of a factor and encourages more of a boring rock/paper/scissors game.

yk
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#2 - 2013-01-05 14:50:32 UTC
So that they can provide their services to brawles without having to go into brawl range themselves and without having to closely match the manoeuvring and darting about that the DPS ships will occasionally have to engage in.

It's a back-row unit; it needs to be able to reach not just the front row of the friendly units, but the front row of the enemy as well. Blink
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#3 - 2013-01-05 14:51:37 UTC
How do you think that positioning would matter in the least if the logis had to be facehugging their targets?
Rain6639
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2013-01-05 15:34:11 UTC
first order of business in new accounts has been training perfect logi for the first year

this is awesome

__________________________________________________________

holy... how long has that "Top" arrow been there (on the bottom left)

lets me quickly skip back to OP's logi tears
Rain6638
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2013-01-05 15:35:29 UTC
i heard someone is crying about logi?

[ 2013.06.21 09:52:05 ] (notify) For initiating combat your security status has been adjusted by -0.1337
Rain6636
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#6 - 2013-01-05 15:38:34 UTC
o noes! the logi spider has cast its web!

#1 Fan of the Commissar Kate Fanclub
YuuKnow
The Scope
#7 - 2013-01-05 15:41:39 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Tippia wrote:
So that they can provide their services to brawles without having to go into brawl range themselves and without having to closely match the manoeuvring and darting about that the DPS ships will occasionally have to engage in.

It's a back-row unit; it needs to be able to reach not just the front row of the friendly units, but the front row of the enemy as well. Blink


EDIT: No personal attacks, please - ISD Tyrozan ... that's the way CCP create them. The question is, *why* CCP felt that was the best way to created them? Would there be more interesting ways to employ the 'healer' concept rather than a standoff uber ranged, uber tank?

Kahega Amielden wrote:
How do you think that positioning would matter in the least if the logis had to be facehugging their targets?


Maybe your right. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference at all and everyone would just hug the logi and be stationary. I don't know.

I'm just trying to conceptionalize something I've noticed when logis are on the field in the fights I've been in, specifically, that everytime I'm in a fight and a logi or logi group shows up, the fight instantly becomes less interesting and degenerates to either a dull DPS vs rep equation or a rock/paper/scissors. All the interesting tatics go to dust and the fight becomes more boring.

Am I wrong? I'm not sure how to place my finger on it, but notice that even in the Alliance Tournament and New Eden Open the number of Logis on the field had to be limited by rule (1 per team) because if they weren't limited, and more logis were involved, the matches would be less interesting and more mudane. CCP knew that.

Also notice that almost all of the most interesting solo, or small gang videos out there are logi free engagements? When logi's are involved the fights are boring.

My own experience is that the uber rep, resist, and range these things get actually makes the fights dull instead of more interesting IMHO. Not sure if reducing range would make logi-supported engagements more dynamic... so that maneurverability was more of a factor, but maybe not, I'm not sure what would.

My 2 isk

yk
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#8 - 2013-01-05 15:44:42 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
YuuKnow wrote:
EDIT: Removal of personal attack quote - ISD Tyrozan ... that's the way CCP create them. The question is, *why* CCP felt that was the best way to created them?
Convention. That's how they always work, most likely because it has been shown way back in the fledgeling boardgame days that touch-range healing was horrible.
Aramatheia
Tiffany and Co.
#9 - 2013-01-05 15:47:11 UTC
i think of it this way, how are you going to rep a fleet of 1000 ships if all the logis have to be within 10-15 or even 20km, you'd need 1000 logis for each 1000 combat ships because there would be never ending out of range issues.
Rain6639
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2013-01-05 15:48:47 UTC
OP doesn't even know the half of it.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-01-05 16:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
YuuKnow wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So that they can provide their services to brawles without having to go into brawl range themselves and without having to closely match the manoeuvring and darting about that the DPS ships will occasionally have to engage in.

It's a back-row unit; it needs to be able to reach not just the front row of the friendly units, but the front row of the enemy as well. Blink


EDIT: Removal of personal attack quote - ISD Tyrozan


Maybe your right. Maybe it wouldn't make a difference at all and everyone would just hug the logi and be stationary. I don't know.

I'm just trying to conceptionalize something I've noticed when logis are on the field in the fights I've been in, specifically, that everytime I'm in a fight and a logi or logi group shows up, the fight instantly becomes less interesting and degenerates to either a dull DPS vs rep equation or a rock/paper/scissors. All the interesting tatics go to dust and the fight becomes more boring.

Am I wrong? I'm not sure how to place my finger on it, but notice that even in the Alliance Tournament and New Eden Open the number of Logis on the field had to be limited by rule (1 per team) because if they weren't limited, and more logis were involved, the matches would be less interesting and more mudane. CCP knew that.

Also notice that almost all of the most interesting solo, or small gang videos out there are logi free engagements? When logi's are involved the fights are boring.

My own experience is that the uber rep, resist, and range these things get actually makes the fights dull instead of more interesting IMHO. Not sure if reducing range would make logi-supported engagements more dynamic... so that maneurverability was more of a factor, but maybe not, I'm not sure what would.

My 2 isk

yk[/quote]

until dec 4th there used to be a counter to logistic ships, an often disregarded and overlooked counter

the Cerberus had a massive sniping range for a reason, now it really does desperately need that future possible T2 rebalance Sad
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#12 - 2013-01-05 16:38:33 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
until dec 4th there used to be a counter to logistic ships, an often disregarded and overlooked counter

the Cerberus had a massive sniping range for a reason, now it really does desperately need that future possible T2 rebalance Sad
It still has more than enough to deal with your average logi.
Tarvos Telesto
Blood Fanatics
#13 - 2013-01-05 16:44:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarvos Telesto
Maybe because CCP want that people start use mixed ship types on field like mixed short range + snipers fleet, instead of drop 20 blasters or pulse monster armaggedons and kill everyone on range after jump, or while gate camp.

EvE isn't game, its style of living.
YuuKnow
The Scope
#14 - 2013-01-05 17:22:43 UTC
Tarvos Telesto wrote:
Maybe because CCP want that people start use mixed ship types on field like mixed short range + snipers fleet, instead of drop 20 blasters or pulse monster armaggedons and kill everyone on range after jump, or while gate camp.


Except that they were also given a sig radius so small (half the size of even a strategic cruiser) that most ranged guns have issues hitting them...

... not sure why CCP decided to design that in as well...

yk
YuuKnow
The Scope
#15 - 2013-01-05 17:25:57 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Tyrozan
Tippia wrote:
YuuKnow[i wrote:
EDIT: Removal of personal attack quote - ISD Tyrozan[/i] ... that's the way CCP create them. The question is, *why* CCP felt that was the best way to created them?
Convention. That's how they always work, most likely because it has been shown way back in the fledgeling boardgame days that touch-range healing was horrible.


Oh, boardgame conviention. That explains it... because board games *always* makes the most awesome internet spaceship games. Its so obvious.

yk
Pewty McPew
EVE Corporation 2357451
#16 - 2013-01-05 17:45:05 UTC
Drive by repping
Rain6639
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#17 - 2013-01-05 17:56:38 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:
Tarvos Telesto wrote:
Maybe because CCP want that people start use mixed ship types on field like mixed short range + snipers fleet, instead of drop 20 blasters or pulse monster armaggedons and kill everyone on range after jump, or while gate camp.


Except that they were also given a sig radius so small (half the size of even a strategic cruiser) that most ranged guns have issues hitting them...

... not sure why CCP decided to design that in as well...

yk


what do you think would make it fair, in terms of sig radius. just curious
YuuKnow
The Scope
#18 - 2013-01-05 20:31:15 UTC
Rain6639 wrote:
YuuKnow wrote:
Tarvos Telesto wrote:
Maybe because CCP want that people start use mixed ship types on field like mixed short range + snipers fleet, instead of drop 20 blasters or pulse monster armaggedons and kill everyone on range after jump, or while gate camp.


Except that they were also given a sig radius so small (half the size of even a strategic cruiser) that most ranged guns have issues hitting them...

... not sure why CCP decided to design that in as well...

yk


what do you think would make it fair, in terms of sig radius. just curious


I'm thinking that they should have the same sig radius of any other cruiser. That would be fair wouldn't it?

On a side note. I'm curious to whether anyone watching this video would actually say that it was a cool fight. To me it is an example of the problem of how boring logi fights are.

yk
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#19 - 2013-01-05 20:51:02 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:

On a side note. I'm curious to whether anyone watching this video would actually say that it was a cool fight. To me it is an example of the problem of how boring logi fights are.

The other guys would probably say it was a cool fight. It also shows the true problem you seam to have with logis. You can't just "Guys, if ya have time, shoot se Harbinger", you should probably switch all at the same time to take them down with an alpha strike before the logi pilot can switch the rep. Well in this case there was not enough dmg available anyway to brake their armor buffers. A good FC would have noticed that.
Hannah Flex
#20 - 2013-01-05 21:49:05 UTC
YOU LEAVE MY LOGI ALONE, THE FIRST BUFF IN YEARS OMG
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