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Why do so many people seem to think they should be immune to ship loss?
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#101 - 2011-10-24 08:11:16 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Welcome to the world of the high sec carebear.

Afraid it is universal my dear, it is possible to manipulate GMs to get ships back in all but the laggy fleet-fight scenario .. and even that is possible depending on amount of whining and circumstances. The same loss aversion is the basis of FoTM waves as the sheep will be drawn in by the sirens call of better ISK efficiency .. it is the basis of the SC proliferation.

Do you really think that null combat would be two sides locking themselves in a room and playing dodge-ball with a handgrenade if there was consequence and cost involved?
CCP needs to increase the options available to allow for superior tactics to trump superior numbers (ex. formations).

So you can take your cheap-ass poking stick and point it where it belongs .. it is way off base pointing it at high-sec.
Hannibal Ord
Fer-De-Lance
#102 - 2011-10-24 09:02:13 UTC
I don't think there is anyone in this game that doesn't get pissed off when they lose a ship.

It scales a bit with experience, when my character was younger losing frigates and stuff was very annoying, now it obviously isn't so bad. But it still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I think the reason people get upset is because they aren't expecting the loss. I too have been suicide ganked when mininig because no matter how many people I splat in this game I am still a carebear and do carebear things.

However, when I get ganked I really don't give too much of a **** when it happens and generally applaud the fact that someone took enough interest in my activities to consider me a target.

A key thing is that I'm a carebear that realised that it's also very easy to kill other people rather than just be the target and perversely it's a lot more fun that mining and missioning.
Hard1234
Hard1234's industries.
#103 - 2011-10-24 09:03:58 UTC
Mortis vonShadow wrote:
okst666 wrote:
I think it is the same reason, why you don't want to buy a car every two days.. You do not want to crash it and lose the money that it had cost.

And, I just do not want to lose ships. That is why I am going for an opting out PvP-Switch as soon as I become the new CSM.

And it is easy to implement for CCP too..

if(user.PvP==false)
agressor.damageModifier =0;

Thats all and it makes myriads of paying members HAPPY and raises willingness to pay for more cool stuff.


Good thing no one is going to vote for you.




What do you mean "no one is going to vote for you"?


I would vote for him.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2011-10-24 09:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
Do you really think that null combat would be two sides locking themselves in a room and playing dodge-ball with a handgrenade if there was consequence and cost involved?


if losing 1 trillion isk, 20k ships, 26+ stations, 30 supercapitals and your alliance isn't an example of cost and consequence, i dont know wtf is

Quote:
CCP needs to increase the options available to allow for superior tactics to trump superior numbers (ex. formations).


Why do you always suggest dumb ideas that are blatantly open to being metagamed?

"hey guys, this formation caps out at 10 duders, so if you have leadership V, form fleet, and spam the advert in alliance until you're filled out, comms are still fleet ops 1 on ts3"
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#105 - 2011-10-24 09:07:04 UTC
The best thing about this thread is that I never said anything about hi-sec or lo-sec or 0.0 in my OP, and look what happened.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#106 - 2011-10-24 09:09:56 UTC
The Apostle wrote:
As usual, you fail to answer questions.
You didn't ask any.
On the other hand, I notice that you didn't answer my questions.

It basically boils down to this: why does ganking need to be reigned in all of a sudden?
Quote:
But I DID answer the 3rd point before you even asked. YOU didn't read it. Indy is NOT insured on T2 as the repalcement prices escalate.
So, don't use T2. Mitigate your risk. And no, price does increase for the ganker because the price of his ships and equipment goes up, and the insurance system is not exactly quick to respond…

Finally, yes, I did read it. I just don't make the same base assumption that industrialists are required by law to be stupid and that they can act market-rationally and that they can judge their costs and their risks and plan accordingly. Maybe I'm wrong — maybe they are as stupid as you indicate…
Quote:
Continued ganking will have effects on scaling that is worse than one-sided, it's diametrically opposed.
…if the industry players choose them to be. They can also choose not to.
Quote:
The loss of multiple ships on every gank has got to be a good thing also huh?
Depends how much resources is consumed. Since the idea to go for smaller ships seems to be based on the hope of lowering the cost — i.e. not expending as many resources — then no, it doesn't have to be.
Quote:
The ONLY off switch NOT available is suicide ganking - part of the reason why it is so heavily defended.
Yes, but not for the reason you claim (setting aside for a moment that it's not ganking that is being defended here). It's because, being the last option to get someone, there must not be an off-switch.
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#107 - 2011-10-24 09:17:32 UTC  |  Edited by: non judgement
if you type /godmode 1 into the chat window you don't have to worry about losing ships anymore.

The only reason I don't buy ships and try to die a lot is that I'm trying to manipulate the market prices of ships. If I don't buy enough of them, their price will drop and they'll become really cheap.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2011-10-24 09:20:06 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The best thing about this thread is that I never said anything about hi-sec or lo-sec or 0.0 in my OP, and look what happened.


sorry, but there are stupid ppl posting stupid things in your thread
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2011-10-24 09:23:28 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
The best thing about this thread is that I never said anything about hi-sec or lo-sec or 0.0 in my OP, and look what happened.


I don't think it makes much of a difference if you stay in 0.0 with 20+ systems around you just blue in local, use a unprobable T3 in low sec or do the your stuff in high sec. The concept seams pretty similar.
Hard1234
Hard1234's industries.
#110 - 2011-10-24 09:33:55 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Malcanis wrote:

A solution almost as practical as staying docked to avoid combat PvP.

/Figures out why people are complaining about establishments.

There might be a group of constantly War Dec'd who have forgotten that the rest of EVE exists and thinks it is a Ship Viewer / Market Simulator. Then when they got the Avatar it was the only thing they understood in the Patch Notes for years. Now they think that because Establishments are gone CCP has stopped Expanding the Game.

It explains everything.



Establishments are NOT gone. They are just posponed.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#111 - 2011-10-24 09:39:10 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The best thing about this thread is that I never said anything about hi-sec or lo-sec or 0.0 in my OP, and look what happened.


I don't think it makes much of a difference if you stay in 0.0 with 20+ systems around you just blue in local, use a unprobable T3 in low sec or do the your stuff in high sec. The concept seams pretty similar.



What if I stay in NPC 0.0 while literally sharing a station with a medium sized alliance who are our implacable enemies (Darkside)?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Generals4
#112 - 2011-10-24 09:52:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Generals4
Malcanis wrote:
Generals4 wrote:


While i agree with the purpose of this post i can't help myself pointing out certain major flaws in your argument.

No one forces you to do anything. Who forces you to market PVP? no one


I would like to buy a Tempest with T2 guns and various other modules so that I can participate in the skirmish fleets my alliance regularly undertakes. What are my options to avoid market PvP?


Well like someone else mentioned, you can mine and manufacture it yourself. Don't like that? Well that's kinda your own fault isn't it? You are given two possible routes and industrialists actually allow you to take the one you obviously dislike the least. And than you sey that that equates with you enforcing the route they like the least upon them?
I hope you see where it went wrong.

But anyway, it's not like optional pvp is ever going to happen anyway. Heck if WiS is ever (fully) implemented i hope to God there will be in station pvp as well ^^

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _
non judgement
Without Fear
Flying Burning Ships Alliance
#113 - 2011-10-24 09:59:51 UTC  |  Edited by: non judgement
Generals4 wrote:

But anyway, it's not like optional pvp is ever going to happen anyway. Heck if WiS is ever (fully) implemented i hope to God there will be in station pvp as well ^^

At the very least you should be able to stop people from getting back to their ship.
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#114 - 2011-10-24 10:07:39 UTC
Anytime someone comes to this forum to complain about suicide ganking, the first question should be, "What ship did you lose?" Alternative and/or supplementary questions include, "Where were you ganked?", "What was your cargo?", and, "What was your fit?"

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#115 - 2011-10-24 10:23:16 UTC
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:
Anytime someone comes to this forum to complain about suicide ganking, the first question should be, "What ship did you lose?" Alternative and/or supplementary questions include, "Where were you ganked?", "What was your cargo?", and, "What was your fit?"



And most important of all: "were you AFK?"

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#116 - 2011-10-24 10:24:19 UTC
Generals4 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Generals4 wrote:


While i agree with the purpose of this post i can't help myself pointing out certain major flaws in your argument.

No one forces you to do anything. Who forces you to market PVP? no one


I would like to buy a Tempest with T2 guns and various other modules so that I can participate in the skirmish fleets my alliance regularly undertakes. What are my options to avoid market PvP?


Well like someone else mentioned, you can mine and manufacture it yourself. Don't like that? Well that's kinda your own fault isn't it? You are given two possible routes and industrialists actually allow you to take the one you obviously dislike the least. And than you sey that that equates with you enforcing the route they like the least upon them?
I hope you see where it went wrong.

But anyway, it's not like optional pvp is ever going to happen anyway. Heck if WiS is ever (fully) implemented i hope to God there will be in station pvp as well ^^



" Don't like that? Well that's kinda your own fault isn't it? "

Is it OK to say that to people who don't like suicide ganking?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Jill Antaris
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2011-10-24 10:28:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Malcanis wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The best thing about this thread is that I never said anything about hi-sec or lo-sec or 0.0 in my OP, and look what happened.


I don't think it makes much of a difference if you stay in 0.0 with 20+ systems around you just blue in local, use a unprobable T3 in low sec or do the your stuff in high sec. The concept seams pretty similar.



What if I stay in NPC 0.0 while literally sharing a station with a medium sized alliance who are our implacable enemies (Darkside)?


Did the same thing back in the days, but honestly I like low sec more because small scale fights are more fun to me.

One key aspect is probably the ability to accept the loss and the perception it creates. This can come out very different if you get hit by surprise in your anno or belt in a pve fitting or at a gate in a hauler compared to expecting it if you participate in a bigger gang for pvp, at least for people that generally don't pvp so much and aren't used to actually live in places where pvp is the natural behavior when 2 ship meet in space.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#118 - 2011-10-24 10:33:27 UTC
Jill Antaris wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Jill Antaris wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The best thing about this thread is that I never said anything about hi-sec or lo-sec or 0.0 in my OP, and look what happened.


I don't think it makes much of a difference if you stay in 0.0 with 20+ systems around you just blue in local, use a unprobable T3 in low sec or do the your stuff in high sec. The concept seams pretty similar.



What if I stay in NPC 0.0 while literally sharing a station with a medium sized alliance who are our implacable enemies (Darkside)?


Did the same thing back in the days, but honestly I like low sec more because small scale fights more fun to me.

One key aspect is probably the ability to accept the loss and the perception it creates. This can come out very different if you get hit by surprise in your anno or belt in a pve fitting or at a gate in a hauler compared to expecting it if you participate in a bigger gang for pvp, at least for people that generally don't pvp so much and aren't used to actually live in places where pvp is the natural behavior when 2 ship meet in space.


Quite so. But some people seem to have transformed their expectation of safety into an (unfounded) entitlement of safety.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#119 - 2011-10-24 10:41:41 UTC
No problem losing ships IDK how many times I 'sploded. Thing is different people play the game for different reasons. Thing is if I want to killl something where I know how it is tanked and I know what flavor of DPS it is dealing I kill rats. And I don't even need logi backup or a concord-defended orca alt to do it. If I want something more challenging I get the hell out of HiSec. Not saying ninjas are'nt perfectly acceptable within the rules of the game. just sayin y'all lack balls.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Generals4
#120 - 2011-10-24 10:45:29 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Generals4 wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Generals4 wrote:


While i agree with the purpose of this post i can't help myself pointing out certain major flaws in your argument.

No one forces you to do anything. Who forces you to market PVP? no one


I would like to buy a Tempest with T2 guns and various other modules so that I can participate in the skirmish fleets my alliance regularly undertakes. What are my options to avoid market PvP?


Well like someone else mentioned, you can mine and manufacture it yourself. Don't like that? Well that's kinda your own fault isn't it? You are given two possible routes and industrialists actually allow you to take the one you obviously dislike the least. And than you say that that equates with you enforcing the route they like the least upon them?
I hope you see where it went wrong.

But anyway, it's not like optional pvp is ever going to happen anyway. Heck if WiS is ever (fully) implemented i hope to God there will be in station pvp as well ^^



" Don't like that? Well that's kinda your own fault isn't it? "

Is it OK to say that to people who don't like suicide ganking?


It would be if they also had an option not to get suicide ganked upon just like you have an alternative to producing your own stuff.

_-Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. _