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NBSI Nullsec = Fail

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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-01-04 16:07:45 UTC
Is there a difference between "Not Blue Shoot It" and "Not Red Do Shoot"?
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#82 - 2013-01-04 16:35:52 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Is there a difference between "Not Blue Shoot It" and "Not Red Do Shoot"?



There used to be...
Ahjurraliassa
T.N.T ORE Industry
#83 - 2013-01-04 16:43:20 UTC
NRDS is nice in theory, but its flaws in practice appear to be covered in this thread.

So on a slight tangent. Has anyone experimented with a foreigners quarter like setup? Basically a system or two that is NRDS and accessible from elswewhere, but if you wander out you get shot? The most obvious issue being that even on a limited basis the flaws of NRDS would be manifest and you would have to just go back to NBSI.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#84 - 2013-01-04 16:43:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Actually NRDS (or some variation on it) could work but it would require some basic game mechanic changes/additions. I can see a very sensible argument being made to consider such changes when Sov is revamped.

NRDS is very, very difficult to keep track of with current game mechanics (limited standings available) and there is little in place to make it possilble, let along profitable, to follow this path. I believe it would be a worthwhile expenditure of Dev time as it would allow new political systems to flourish in EvE that emulate the way countries that allow some freedom of trade and tourism operate.

Some game mechanics changes that would make NRDS possible would include.

The ability to have a contract that allows an individual/corp/alliance to automatically have their standings updated to match another organization (for example, a Sov holding Alliance).

If you have Sov you would gain the ability to levy a small fee for using the gates in your space dependant on the travellers standings to the Sov holding Alliance. Failure to pay does not preclude using the gate, but it automatically changes your standings to the Sov holding alliance (and anyone else that voluntarily agree's (contracts) to have their standings mirror the space holder.

Greatly expand the industrial/administrative capability of POS's and particularly Outposts. More offices, efficient and more production lines and research capabilites.

The ability to have a contract that allows you to tax others (outside your corp) that are operating within your Sov. Operating within that space without said contract automatically changes your standings to the Sov holder (and affiliated parties).

When combined with the already existing ability to restrict or charge a fee for docking and use of various Outpost services, and the ability to make channels for the sharing of intel, as well as EvE voice for mixed fleet use, NRDS "might" become a viable alternative to NBSI... potentially earning the Sov holder a nice passive income.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Toku Jiang
Jiang Laboratories and Discovery
#85 - 2013-01-04 16:49:43 UTC
As in real life if someone you don't know comes to your house and tries to use your garage you shoot them in the face regardless of their intent. Twisted
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#86 - 2013-01-04 16:49:58 UTC
Ahjurraliassa wrote:
NRDS is nice in theory, but its flaws in practice appear to be covered in this thread.

So on a slight tangent. Has anyone experimented with a foreigners quarter like setup? Basically a system or two that is NRDS and accessible from elswewhere, but if you wander out you get shot? The most obvious issue being that even on a limited basis the flaws of NRDS would be manifest and you would have to just go back to NBSI.



Treaties was a game design that was going to allow for this.

IE: You are blue in some systems, but show up red if you enter systems you are not supposed to be in, such as the sov holders fleet yards systems.
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Doomheim
#87 - 2013-01-04 16:50:52 UTC
Toku Jiang wrote:
As in real life if someone you don't know comes to your house and tries to use your garage you shoot them in the face regardless of their intent. Twisted



That doesn't exactly translate to countries, otherwise there would be a lot of dead "illegal aliens" in some countries.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#88 - 2013-01-04 16:55:14 UTC
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Toku Jiang wrote:
As in real life if someone you don't know comes to your house and tries to use your garage you shoot them in the face regardless of their intent. Twisted



That doesn't exactly translate to countries, otherwise there would be a lot of dead "illegal aliens" in some countries.


Sounds like you haven't read up about how Mexico treats illegal aliens who cross in from their southern border. Or how China treats illegal aliens crossing in from North Korea. Or [insert African country] treats illegal aliens crossing in from [insert neighboring African country]. Not every country in the world is nice enough to just deport people who enter illegally.

In EVE, because of the way cloning works, the worst that you can do to someone "illegally" entering your "country" is to "deport" them.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#89 - 2013-01-04 17:01:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote:
Ahjurraliassa wrote:
NRDS is nice in theory, but its flaws in practice appear to be covered in this thread.

So on a slight tangent. Has anyone experimented with a foreigners quarter like setup? Basically a system or two that is NRDS and accessible from elswewhere, but if you wander out you get shot? The most obvious issue being that even on a limited basis the flaws of NRDS would be manifest and you would have to just go back to NBSI.



Treaties was a game design that was going to allow for this.

IE: You are blue in some systems, but show up red if you enter systems you are not supposed to be in, such as the sov holders fleet yards systems.


What the hell happened to treaties anyways?

I was so looking forward to breaking as many treaties as my alliance could sign :) .
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2013-01-04 17:02:59 UTC
Ahjurraliassa wrote:
NRDS is nice in theory, but its flaws in practice appear to be covered in this thread.

So on a slight tangent. Has anyone experimented with a foreigners quarter like setup? Basically a system or two that is NRDS and accessible from elswewhere, but if you wander out you get shot? The most obvious issue being that even on a limited basis the flaws of NRDS would be manifest and you would have to just go back to NBSI.

So your solution is to form a Ghetto/Mellah?

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#91 - 2013-01-04 17:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Toku Jiang wrote:
As in real life if someone you don't know comes to your house and tries to use your garage you shoot them in the face regardless of their intent. Twisted


Actually if you use lethal force in most civilized nations, even if someone is on your property, you must still prove that you felt your life was in danger or that you were facing imminent harm. In other words if some kid walks into your garage off the street, even if he attempts to swipe your hub caps, if he is unarmed you're going to be in serious trouble if you put a bullet in him.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#92 - 2013-01-04 17:07:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Ranger 1 wrote:
Toku Jiang wrote:
As in real life if someone you don't know comes to your house and tries to use your garage you shoot them in the face regardless of their intent. Twisted


Actually if you use lethal force in most countries, even if someone is on your property, you must still prove that you felt your life was in danger or that you were facing imminent harm. In other words if some kid walks into your garage off the street, even if he attempts to swipe your hub caps, if he is unarmed you're going to be in serious trouble if you put a bullet in him.


Which is why I'm glad I live in Texas (where the legal assumption is that someone entering your home means to do you harm, which then allows for legal use of force, up to and including Deadly Force). None of that pansy "duty to retreat" crap.

Texas is a lot like EVE, hell it might be why I like EVE Smile
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#93 - 2013-01-04 17:11:39 UTC
NRDS works just fine.
The Alliance standings entry limit should be at around 100,000 but that has nothing to do with NRDS. It would be nice to see formal NAP flagging too. If Goons and FA are part of a Coalition, they should have a flag system that identifies one another as CFC. Provi Bloc, same thing. Thus freeing up blue standings options.

The strange thing I found about NBSI was, they all have reds. With NRDS you need to set Blue to eliminate station costs but with NBSI, it's all fair game. The last NBSI alliance I was in even went so far as to set the uber enemies -5 orange because they had so many reds, they needed a new way to define the people I would have shot at anyway?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#94 - 2013-01-04 17:16:48 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Toku Jiang wrote:
As in real life if someone you don't know comes to your house and tries to use your garage you shoot them in the face regardless of their intent. Twisted


Actually if you use lethal force in most countries, even if someone is on your property, you must still prove that you felt your life was in danger or that you were facing imminent harm. In other words if some kid walks into your garage off the street, even if he attempts to swipe your hub caps, if he is unarmed you're going to be in serious trouble if you put a bullet in him.


Which is why I'm glad I live in Texas (where the legal assumption is that someone entering your home means to do you harm, which then allows for legal use of force, up to and including Deadly Force). None of that pansy "duty to retreat" crap.

Texas is a lot like EVE, hell it might be why I like EVE Smile

Well, I did specify "civilized". Big smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-01-04 17:16:54 UTC
Ocih wrote:
NRDS works just fine.


yes, because every NRDS alliance is effectively NBSI because they set every NBSI group in existence red

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2013-01-04 17:18:49 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
What the hell happened to treaties anyways?

I was so looking forward to breaking as many treaties as my alliance could sign :) .

They got flushed down the toilet, along with most of what was "planned" for dominion, which is why it turned out to be the suck a bag of dicks expansion.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Merouk Baas
#97 - 2013-01-04 17:18:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Merouk Baas
Ranger 1 wrote:
Actually NRDS (or some variation on it) could work but it would require some basic game mechanic changes/additions.


You're asking for an automated secure transaction to rent space (and become blue), and you're offering tax revenue incentives to the SOV holder to open their gates.

Diplo's have a lot of work on their plate, but giving up control over who is blue, that's not something they'll want to let go of. If any spy can pay a fee and become blue, with no API check and no interview, that's worse than NRDS.

And offering taxes to sov holders, that's the same as offering tax breaks for carebears to go into lowsec. They don't need your piddly taxes, and they don't need more people in their area, they're perfectly fine the way they are. I'd be willing to bet they'll all set the tax to 100% just to drive the point home that they don't need you there.

Everyone who uses NBSI is fine with it, and they don't need more people crowding their areas.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#98 - 2013-01-04 17:19:37 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
NRDS doesn't scale and NBSI is an excuse for some people to not move into nullsec. They could easily move into NPC nullsec if they wanted, and start practicing NRDS all they want, or they can move to CVA space and play with likeminded people. They'll quickly end up basically treating NRDS as NBSI just because it makes life so much easier.

But noooooooo.


I did not find NPC nullsec so much NRDS tbh. It's way more NBSI than sov nullsec ever hopes to be.

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#99 - 2013-01-04 17:20:14 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Is there a difference between "Not Blue Shoot It" and "Not Red Do Shoot"?


Mostly in how you react to players who are neither blue nor red.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2013-01-04 17:20:17 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Toku Jiang wrote:
As in real life if someone you don't know comes to your house and tries to use your garage you shoot them in the face regardless of their intent. Twisted


Actually if you use lethal force in most civilized nations, even if someone is on your property, you must still prove that you felt your life was in danger or that you were facing imminent harm. In other words if some kid walks into your garage off the street, even if he attempts to swipe your hub caps, if he is unarmed you're going to be in serious trouble if you put a bullet in him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat