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Goonswarm Federation is a Design Constraint in Star Citizen?!

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Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#161 - 2013-01-04 13:16:46 UTC
Thomas Gore wrote:
It's the only way to make sure CCP will stop wasting your hard earned dollars for projects like a certain console game, and put that money into developing EVE instead.


http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/forum/showthread.php?13989-Dream-Game-featuring-the-possibility-of-ground-combat

You mean no one actually wants that?

EVE has a pretty big head start. If they don't ignore the upcoming competition and I don't think they will, there is plenty of time to react.
Lexmana
#162 - 2013-01-04 13:20:10 UTC
Thomas Gore wrote:
It's good to discuss this. I don't doubt the EVE devs are reading all the buzz around SC and E:D. They have to keep eye on any plausible competition which, let's be honest here, has been pretty non-existant for the whole lifespan of EVE.

Everyone of you who love EVE, you should be wishing for SC to be a brilliant space game that will seriously threaten to eat EVE's playerbase. It's the only way to make sure CCP will stop wasting your hard earned dollars for projects like a certain console game, and put that money into developing EVE instead.

I think most serious EVE players wants EVE to remain a niche game where great empires raise and fall and no-one is safe. The fear is that if another MMO becomes too successful with a carebear attitude (like SC seems to have) CCP will change their strategy. The hope is that CCP understands that they have a good niche carved out with loyal long term players and their best business is to develop that niche further. So basically, it is mixed feelings of fear and hope.
Dave Stark
#163 - 2013-01-04 13:22:50 UTC
Pandora Barzane wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
i know i'm a bit late to the party but is this thread basically "star citizen doesn't like goons, therefore it will be boring"?



well I find the goons boring.



really? i find them one of the most interesting groups of people in any game i've ever played.
ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#164 - 2013-01-04 13:24:20 UTC
Hi,

Whilst this involves in EVE Player entity, it's not really a topic for EVE General Discussion, so I'm moving this to the correct forum.

Thanks.

[b]ISD Suvetar Captain/Commando Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
Garret Brennar
Doomheim
#165 - 2013-01-04 13:24:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Garret Brennar
I'm...Kind of not understanding what the issue is, here.

So, you folks want a game that is not EVE...to be like EVE?

Also, I was kind of under the impression that Star Citizen was going to be a single player game with an MMO-inspired multiplayer component - sort of like a mix of Freelancer and Wing Commander.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#166 - 2013-01-04 13:26:30 UTC
Thomas Gore wrote:
We all know you goons think that you're playing EVE the only way it was meant to be played.

Unfortunately with that attitude, EVE will eventually shrink and die. Competition is coming, CCP needs to be prepared. They can still offer the most harsh and thrilling experience, but if harsh and unforgiving is all they offer - well good luck with that.


Nah. All things must come to an end, but EVE's end won't be from some ****** cuddly scifi MMO. We've learned that a more significant danger to the game comes from the possibility of CCP making a widely unpopular change or addition to the game, as we learned from the Summer of Rage in 2011. This game's harsh and unforgiving nature is what makes it great - even a small mistake or a rogue element can bring your empire crashing down.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#167 - 2013-01-04 13:28:31 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/forum/showthread.php?13882-How-powerfull-should-players-be&p=38642&viewfull=1#post38642

Apparently goon antics in EVE have the star citizen community concerned that SC might become too "EVE like" and allow griefing and evil pvp. Apparently big alliances are "bad game design" and the little guy isn't getting enough respect.

Quote:


Well, basically my question is based on EvE where a few huge and well organized alliances with thousands of members completely dominate lawless space. Nobody and no clan not in the large alliances can go out there without getting shot to pieces, gates are camped, stations are camped and if you try to place an orbital base it will immediately get blasted by siege dreadnoughts.

I want people to be able to assert some level of dominance of space, but not complete control. A large alliance may well establish a large asteroid base in a belt and monopolize it, shooting anyone else who tries to mine there. But not an entire system, and if they try to blockade a jump point they could stop fleets but not smugglers and lone wolfs slipping through their fingers. Nor pirates/bounty hunters/RP freedom fighters from operating under their noses from a hidden asteroid base.

The second thing from EvE was GOONs having events like hulkageddon, where they suicide attacked Hulk miners and freighters. The police would swoop in and kill them, but a "neutral" would then loot and salvage their and their victims remains, netting them a tidy profit. As soon as a players security status had dropped too low from criminal activity, they deleted it and created a new one and started again. Next they launched the Burn Jita operation, Jita being the main trade hub in the entire EvE universe and well within the Caldari State's borders, where they suicide ganked litterally thousands of player ships.

Now, I love arson and murder as much as the next guy, but I really wondered why nothing happened in-lore. Everybody knows where the GOON alliance lives, why didn't CCP have the npc Caldari State Navy respond to Burn Jita like America did to 9/11? (they declared it "emergent gameplay" and wrote a post about how well their servers had held up.....)



That kind of quote isn't unique, go to their forums and see for yourself.

Quote:


There is so much to be learned from the Eve experience. Game mechanics should allow player based organizations to get, just so big. Early on as now it's easy to set those limits, but once you have a 12,000 member organization as in Eve online's case, that with there allies seem to control everything in the game, it can become impossible. Especially with CCP being on the ropes for money, as is now, they just can't break it up. It would **** too many off, and cost subscriptions, or revenue, when they desperately need it.



I have been reading the SC forums tonight to pass some time, and I am truly amazed at the level of carebearism and pubbyism being displayed. They make brilliant threads that are putting EVE entitlement threads to shame such as


  • The ability for individuals to be more powerful than organized groups (for teh balancez)
  • The ability to pause the game during PVP to go to the bathroom
  • The ability for people who prefer single player to upload their progress to the main server so they can grind offline (no way to exploit this)


They are afraid of PVP, antisocial, risk averse, and want 15 different games rolled into one. Sound familiar?

Why am I posting this here? Because CCP loves to listen to these kinds of whiners and has lost their HTFU philosophy. I'm concerned that this new alcove of carebearism is going to overfill into our community and ruin it forever. CCP, I am truly begging you. Guard, Greyscale, Eterne, PLEASE DO NOT SUCCUMB TO THESE KINDS OF PEOPLE.


Of course it sounds familiar as we see it here every damn day in the form of some dudes "I don't like to talk to people and can't make friends but i want to go to null sec, CCP please make null sec solo friendly" posts.

As I've said before, carebearism is a CANCER, it's only attribute is it's unstoppable spread.

These "people" are talking about a game that doesn't even exist yet and they are already putting their "entitlement" bids in. They aren't interested in good solid game play (what you find in sandbox games), they are looking for a game to confirm what they want to believe, that they are epic heroes who are really only timid friendless loners living in there mother's basement harboring revenge fantasies on people they haven't seen since elementary school simply because the WORLD is what's wrong, it can't possibly be THEM.

The people are here too already (we fight against them everyday on these forums till CONCORD....i mean CCP Eterne swoops down to save them), and if CCP is to be believed, they NEVER leave high sec....ever.
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#168 - 2013-01-04 13:31:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Sergeant Acht Scultz
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

all the bad things I can wish to SC is to be that successful, as I would like Eve to be that successful but after a couple years just stop expecting this because of CCP bad choices this will never ever happen.

And that is a good thing because any game that wan't to have multiple millions of players has to succumb to the new breed of entitled players that demand instant gratification and PvP flags. And that would make a horrible EVE.

Not so bad if you're an entitled player. You CANT Nerf HighSec!



You can, Eve is claimed by some players being a non consensual pvp game when it's not one, high sec and low sec being there by design clearly states they are wrong.
Ho and the pvp flags joke, you've got it with crimewatch so what's the word already? -ho yes, it's HTFU

I don't see any problem getting rid of high sec and low sec, but those are there since the beginning and I do think it's a bad choice nerfing the heck out of high sec because it will solve absolutely nothing for other areas of the game but loose players/subs.
Those being there by choice will not go anywhere else in the game anyway, so if loosing them or at least majority of them as players and subs is not a problem for CCP, then this is even less of a problem for me and I could care less about the impact it would have on the short or the long term, it's their company and their business, not mine.

I can hardly understand why players claiming they love this game are be happy of CCP bad choices leading to subs loss.

In fact, I would like to ask those players claiming non consensual pvp to just move to some game that is one and stop trying to mess with this one, but I'm probably wrong. Bear

removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#169 - 2013-01-04 13:36:58 UTC
Karak Terrel wrote:
Thomas Gore wrote:
It's the only way to make sure CCP will stop wasting your hard earned dollars for projects like a certain console game, and put that money into developing EVE instead.


http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/forum/showthread.php?13989-Dream-Game-featuring-the-possibility-of-ground-combat

You mean no one actually wants that?

EVE has a pretty big head start. If they don't ignore the upcoming competition and I don't think they will, there is plenty of time to react.


If DUST was on PC and fully integrated in EVE (meaning you would actually log in from the same launcher and your characters, capsuleers and mercenaries, would all be in the same place), I don't think anyone would be complaining.

And yes, your second paragraph is exactly what I hope too.
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#170 - 2013-01-04 13:39:10 UTC
You know what I find sad here is the EVE universe is not enough, what does that say about EVE, what does that say about the players?

If you are already concerned about another MMO when you are here...in EVE...think about it, why are you worried about carebearism in SC?
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#171 - 2013-01-04 13:41:18 UTC
Andski wrote:
Thomas Gore wrote:
We all know you goons think that you're playing EVE the only way it was meant to be played.

Unfortunately with that attitude, EVE will eventually shrink and die. Competition is coming, CCP needs to be prepared. They can still offer the most harsh and thrilling experience, but if harsh and unforgiving is all they offer - well good luck with that.


Nah. All things must come to an end, but EVE's end won't be from some ****** cuddly scifi MMO. We've learned that a more significant danger to the game comes from the possibility of CCP making a widely unpopular change or addition to the game, as we learned from the Summer of Rage in 2011. This game's harsh and unforgiving nature is what makes it great - even a small mistake or a rogue element can bring your empire crashing down.


That is the greatest fear yes and I would hate EVE to turn into a whole different game. However, there is no need to do that really. What I wish is that CCP will continue to add more tools to the sandbox, adjust the UI to be more accessible and generally increase the scope of risk vs. reward within the game.

Frankly, I think Crimewatch was a brilliant system to add. It has some irks still that need to be ironed out but in general it is exactly what this game needs - systems that players can use to create more content.

And even if I don't live in null, I sincerely hope CCP will next turn their attention to your playground and add a massive amount of new toys.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#172 - 2013-01-04 13:42:08 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
You can, Eve is claimed by some players being a non consensual pvp game when it's not one, high sec and low sec being there by design clearly states they are wrong.


Nah. The ability to shoot someone in highsec without their consent explicitly means that this is a nonconsensual PvP game. CONCORD only ensures that "unwanted" aggression comes at a cost, but it doesn't exist to prevent it outright. If that was the case, you simply wouldn't be able to attack anyone in highsec without their explicit consent, period.

Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
I don't see any problem getting rid of high sec and low sec, but those are there since the beginning and I do think it's a bad choice nerfing the heck out of high sec because it will solve absolutely nothing for other areas of the game but loose players/subs.

Those being there by choice will not go anywhere else in the game anyway, so if loosing them or at least majority of them as players and subs is not a problem for CCP, then this is even less of a problem for me and I could care less about the impact it would have on the short or the long term, it's their company and their business, not mine.


The problem isn't that other areas of the game are lacking, it's that basically anything you can do in 0.0 can be done in hisec just as well, if not better, with substantially less risk and much, much more convenience. Simply buffing the hell out of 0.0 won't fix anything since it'll only lead to power creep.

Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
I can hardly understand why players claiming they love this game are be happy of CCP bad choices leading to subs loss.

In fact, I would like to ask those players claiming non consensual pvp to just move to some game that is one and stop trying to mess with this one, but I'm probably wrong. Bear


Nah, this is a non-consensual PvP game.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Karak Terrel
Foundation for CODE and THE NEW ORDER
#173 - 2013-01-04 13:50:09 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:

You can, Eve is claimed by some players being a non consensual pvp game when it's not one, high sec and low sec being there by design clearly states they are wrong.

And what is the connection of the security zones that only define the consequences of your actions to PvP being not "non consensual"?

- I can sinmply attack you in highsec without your consent.
- I can declare war on your ass and the attack you without concord intervening without your consent.
- I can bump your ass out of the belt and mine your roids away without your consent.
- I can overbid you buy orders on the market without your consent.
- I can underbit your sell orders on the market without consent.
- I can steal your mission loot and salvage without your consent.
- I can infiltrate your corp without you knowing it's me and steal your **** without your consent.
- ...

And so could you to me without my consent.
Pandora Barzane
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#174 - 2013-01-04 14:06:34 UTC
Thomas Gore wrote:
Andski wrote:
go play one of those other games where everyone is super nice and cuddly to each other then


We all know you goons think that you're playing EVE the only way it was meant to be played.

Unfortunately with that attitude, EVE will eventually shrink and die. Competition is coming, CCP needs to be prepared. They can still offer the most harsh and thrilling experience, but if harsh and unforgiving is all they offer - well good luck with that.






I think at least some people at CCP must have scratched their goatee's when they saw SC raised 6.3 million in record time. A clear message that people want a different space game than whats currently on the market.

when at the development stage of SC they are already talking about putting gameplay mechanics in place to prevent griefing. Because you know, youre suppose to enjoy games, maybe its a bit less HTFU but I can imagine its a wideopen gap in the market, waiting to be taken. CCP seems to have ignored that.

Im only wondering how many Eve players backed games like SC/ED/LT
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#175 - 2013-01-04 14:34:05 UTC
Pandora Barzane wrote:
Thomas Gore wrote:
Andski wrote:
go play one of those other games where everyone is super nice and cuddly to each other then


We all know you goons think that you're playing EVE the only way it was meant to be played.

Unfortunately with that attitude, EVE will eventually shrink and die. Competition is coming, CCP needs to be prepared. They can still offer the most harsh and thrilling experience, but if harsh and unforgiving is all they offer - well good luck with that.






I think at least some people at CCP must have scratched their goatee's when they saw SC raised 6.3 million in record time. A clear message that people want a different space game than whats currently on the market.

when at the development stage of SC they are already talking about putting gameplay mechanics in place to prevent griefing. Because you know, youre suppose to enjoy games, maybe its a bit less HTFU but I can imagine its a wideopen gap in the market, waiting to be taken. CCP seems to have ignored that.

Im only wondering how many Eve players backed games like SC/ED/LT




"SC" doesn't exist yet. Sure, they generated some good money, no denying there is a market for that kind of thing. But where do you people get the idea that EVE will die unless it someone changes to cater to the carebear masses?

Competition is coming? Oh, you mean like STAR TREK ONLINE which is a carebear wet dream that was suppose to kill EVE. or like SWTOR?

EVE survives because it's DIFFERENT, not only survives, but has grown when many other themepark "give the player what they want" games have died. SC and it's like will probably be no different.

Some of you really do want EVE to die if for no other reason than to validate your world view, a world view you have no EVIDENCE to support.
Lexmana
#176 - 2013-01-04 14:36:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Pandora Barzane wrote:
Thomas Gore wrote:
Andski wrote:
go play one of those other games where everyone is super nice and cuddly to each other then


We all know you goons think that you're playing EVE the only way it was meant to be played.

Unfortunately with that attitude, EVE will eventually shrink and die. Competition is coming, CCP needs to be prepared. They can still offer the most harsh and thrilling experience, but if harsh and unforgiving is all they offer - well good luck with that.





I think at least some people at CCP must have scratched their goatee's when they saw SC raised 6.3 million in record time. A clear message that people want a different space game than whats currently on the market.

when at the development stage of SC they are already talking about putting gameplay mechanics in place to prevent griefing. Because you know, youre suppose to enjoy games, maybe its a bit less HTFU but I can imagine its a wideopen gap in the market, waiting to be taken. CCP seems to have ignored that.

Im only wondering how many Eve players backed games like SC/ED/LT



Are you suggesting that CCP should change their game to try compete with SC for all the carebears and entitled instant gratification players out there or that they should continue to develop the niche they own and dominate?
EglantinFinfleur
Ecpyrosis
#177 - 2013-01-04 16:19:18 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

"SC" doesn't exist yet. Sure, they generated some good money, no denying there is a market for that kind of thing. But where do you people get the idea that EVE will die unless it someone changes to cater to the carebear masses?

Competition is coming? Oh, you mean like STAR TREK ONLINE which is a carebear wet dream that was suppose to kill EVE. or like SWTOR?

EVE survives because it's DIFFERENT, not only survives, but has grown when many other themepark "give the player what they want" games have died. SC and it's like will probably be no different.

Some of you really do want EVE to die if for no other reason than to validate your world view, a world view you have no EVIDENCE to support.



EvE survives because it caters to a specific demographic: sadists and masochists. The former will fund several accounts to reap Schadenfreude with no risks or consequences, the latter will fund several accounts to get griefed endlessly but with a modicum of respite or the possibility to escape griefing if they can't take it anymore.
It does also survive because it's got top-notch UI and graphics. The single server also helps to attract players.

However, for all this game could have been, I wish CCP crashes and burns. It should have been the best MMO ever, but it's just a cesspool, where everything goes, and in which gamers pat themselves on the back when they make other gamers unsubscribe. Ingame interactions are a mere pretext for metagame goals, which boil down to making people rage and cry.

This is plain stupid but it has become a business plan, since a single shard server can only cater to so many people. Mechanics that force players to invest in alts are therefore great, since the data load from a single player with many accounts is much less than the data load of the same number of RL players with a single account each. Sadists & masochists make this game live.

Add to this the fact that CCP brown-noses the larger entity alive (it used to be BOB, now it's Goonswarm), and there are many reasons to toast the day when CCP goes bankrupt.

A company that makes its game thrive on emotional negativity deserves failure.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#178 - 2013-01-04 16:29:02 UTC
Let's not forget that the carebear and instant gratification mentalities are fundamentally incompatible with the dominant mentality in a harsh and unforgiving game like EVE. Making this game too carebear friendly (by, say, making scamming and corp theft bannable or disabling suspect/criminal actions in hisec) would not only alienate the scammers, thieves and suicide gankers, but most of us who feel that the ability to do those things is central to the game, which it truly is, since trust has always been the most valuable commodity in this game and no place should be truly "safe."

EVE cannot be two games at the same time, period.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#179 - 2013-01-04 16:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
EglantinFinfleur wrote:
EvE survives because it caters to a specific demographic: sadists and masochists. The former will fund several accounts to reap Schadenfreude with no risks or consequences, the latter will fund several accounts to get griefed endlessly but with a modicum of respite or the possibility to escape griefing if they can't take it anymore.
It does also survive because it's got top-notch UI and graphics. The single server also helps to attract players.

However, for all this game could have been, I wish CCP crashes and burns. It should have been the best MMO ever, but it's just a cesspool, where everything goes, and in which gamers pat themselves on the back when they make other gamers unsubscribe. Ingame interactions are a mere pretext for metagame goals, which boil down to making people rage and cry.

This is plain stupid but it has become a business plan, since a single shard server can only cater to so many people. Mechanics that force players to invest in alts are therefore great, since the data load from a single player with many accounts is much less than the data load of the same number of RL players with a single account each. Sadists & masochists make this game live.

Add to this the fact that CCP brown-noses the larger entity alive (it used to be BOB, now it's Goonswarm), and there are many reasons to toast the day when CCP goes bankrupt.

A company that makes its game thrive on emotional negativity deserves failure.


Hey let's not get overly emotional here and act like everyone gets "griefed endlessly" because they don't

What got you to sign up for EVE? The ponies and rainbows all over the advertisements? In any case the game is obviously not what you expected it to be so why do you continue to play and support the developers whom you clearly loathe?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#180 - 2013-01-04 16:36:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Andski wrote:
Thomas Gore wrote:
We all know you goons think that you're playing EVE the only way it was meant to be played.

Unfortunately with that attitude, EVE will eventually shrink and die. Competition is coming, CCP needs to be prepared. They can still offer the most harsh and thrilling experience, but if harsh and unforgiving is all they offer - well good luck with that.


Nah. All things must come to an end, but EVE's end won't be from some ****** cuddly scifi MMO. We've learned that a more significant danger to the game comes from the possibility of CCP making a widely unpopular change or addition to the game, as we learned from the Summer of Rage in 2011. This game's harsh and unforgiving nature is what makes it great - even a small mistake or a rogue element can bring your empire crashing down.


Well, tbh that "feature" was not "widely unpopular", just simply not existant. People had waited for several years and all they got delivered was a badly lagging, closed door.

Once again (like I said for the other thread), CCP plans <> CCP implementation. The latter became widely unpopular after people had seen how crappy it was done. Plus CCP in their wisdom manage to pack the P2W system attached to it, just to add insult to injury (the P2W and the 3rd party apps licensing being very sore spots).

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