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Null is Broken, Hisec working as intended.

First post
Author
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#421 - 2013-01-02 01:12:05 UTC
Mister Tuggles wrote:
High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play.

I firmly believe that Null should be nerfed, and have a lot of its wealth moved into low sec. You know, low sec, that place where every corp in the 50 surrounding systems aren't blue to your alliance, and you actually get attacked by other players...

High sec is perfectly safe right now. Stop posting nonsense.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#422 - 2013-01-02 02:32:18 UTC
Andski wrote:
Mister Tuggles wrote:
High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play.

I firmly believe that Null should be nerfed, and have a lot of its wealth moved into low sec. You know, low sec, that place where every corp in the 50 surrounding systems aren't blue to your alliance, and you actually get attacked by other players...

High sec is perfectly safe right now. Stop posting nonsense.

Haha, look at him, saying highsec is the most dangerous.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Frying Doom
#423 - 2013-01-02 09:45:38 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Andski wrote:
Mister Tuggles wrote:
High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play.

I firmly believe that Null should be nerfed, and have a lot of its wealth moved into low sec. You know, low sec, that place where every corp in the 50 surrounding systems aren't blue to your alliance, and you actually get attacked by other players...

High sec is perfectly safe right now. Stop posting nonsense.

Haha, look at him, saying highsec is the most dangerous.

Yes Blue space is a problem but honestly what is there to fight for.

Top down income needs to go, while I think just having a workable industry will drive a lot of conflicts as there will be miners to gank, in large numbers.

Hi-sec can be dangerous yes but it is more dangerous to lose concentration in a WH or lo-sec.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#424 - 2013-01-02 10:46:54 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:
That is the whole problem on this thread; people who think that other people playing with space toys should play with those toys in the way THEY think they should.

Don't you dare presume to tell me what I think. I don't give a damn what you do in this game, I do however care about the mechanics you're exploiting and how they affect me.


I'm not exploiting any mechanics. I only sub for the forums. There are much better games to play.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#425 - 2013-01-02 16:56:42 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
A player built outpost is a "sandbox" feature. (It would be more so if it were destructible)

The above was not in reference to one of your statements.

But one about the fact that any form of incentive to go somewhere other than Hi-sec is not a sandbox feature.
Murk Paradox wrote:

Why? If it's a sandbox and you're given choices, then why should you be incentivized to leave? If anyone/thing wants you away and gone, why have that there in the first place? There's already rules about terrorizing newbie pilots, but nothing saying it's wrong to do incursions/lvl 4 missions, manufacture or have trade hubs in highsec.


So now you are indeed taking the sandbox element out of the picture thinking that high/low/null is a set value of "level" of gameplay.


Guess what, it isn't.



I'm not seeing where what I said is wrong. Are you refereing my use of "sandbox element"? Because it is correct, reinforced by your own definition quoted by wikipedia. Maybe I need to spell out the underlined sentence, since you clearly glossed over a few words =P. THINKING that high/low/null has a set value of gameplay to think one advances to the next such as in stages, removes the sandbox element of what eve is. All sectors of space are equal in regards to who can go where. If it makes it easier for you, replace with open world element.

But please, if you wish to pick apart a statement, use all the words =)

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#426 - 2013-01-02 17:03:44 UTC
lol this guy is stupid
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#427 - 2013-01-02 17:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Andski wrote:
DSpite Culhach wrote:
This is the whole problem.

"We don't have enough to shoot at, hence we must force players out of hisec, cause its too easy to stay there"

Hello? This is a GAME, right, so people will in fact see how a particular part of a game works, and for example decide "I just want to spend my free off work relaxing time in the market or making items" or "I just want to sub for 6 months and work up to a few Incursions".

So you want more PvP'ers but there dosn't seem to be enough of them? And you're blaming a game mechanic?

The game mechanic is what divides players into categories. If you have an mmo game that's has a 10K player base with a 50/50 pve/pvp population, and remove pve completely , do people seriously think the pve players will just go "oh well, now I have no choice but to pvp" and suddenly have 10K pvp players or do you think you'll just now have maybe 6000 pvp players and empty cities?


This isn't about forcing players out of hisec because short of CCP moving their characters and assets to nullsec entirely, that isn't happening. It's about balancing hisec to stop it from being the absolute best game in town.


Why? You've been saying the problem is with highsec. Now you're saying it isn't?

I'm not going to play the goon card or anything, but it will be hard to ignore the fact that goons are the largest entity of people in eve, and almost ANY null/highsec conversation includes a Goon speaking ill of one in favor of another in some sort of good vs evil battle.

Highsec is npc generated much akin to a major city. Major trade hubs, infrastructure, reasearch, the ability to do just about anything in game can be done in highsec. We all know it, and have known it.

Then you have a group of people who want to create their own space. They want their own diplomats and choose to shoot whoever they want. Their rules. Screw everyone else. Fine. You got it.

Now the "people" (ccp, empire et al) who are behind the scenes of highsec are supposed to help you make it your version of them, all the way citing it isn't "fair"? Of course it's not. It's not fair. Eve is a cold and harsh, blah blah blah.

But you didn't want highsec, you forsook it and walked away. You wanted to make your own empire, and have done so. It's not anyone else's fault in highsec nor is it a problem of highsec, that people don't want to go to null.

In short, you did a shittier job of it than empire did creating their high security space.

When people want pure lawless space, they go see null.

No incentives are needed, because it's player generated. You want more people in null, get more people in null. Don't rest upon the fact you want more targets when you can have them at a moment's notice. You sov types do indeed do it all the time. Even come into highsec for those targets.

All this honey and vinegar crap is insane. Make your neighborhood better instead of pleading with other people to do it for you. It's your bed you made, sleep in it.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.

Zaraz Zaraz
Zontik Paraphernalia Inc
#428 - 2013-01-02 23:51:01 UTC
Watching the two sides square off against each other; the ones who like to puff themselves up about how they enjoy the 'cold harsh' game and aren't afraid to get their internet space toys blown up and aren't they just awesome!!!!! vs the ones who just want to relax and play a game and have fun and its not fair that their internet space toys can get blow'd up by other players leave us alone!!!!!

Guys. Its just a game. Enjoy what you have while you have it. The mechanics get changed by CCP ALL THE TIME! It totally breaks immersion, pretty much every patch (what how did all these ships all across the galaxy get their slot layout and stats changed simultaneously??) Immersion breaking. But its CCPs game; the hammer will swing around wildly and the game will change.

Enjoy what you have. While you have it. Don't bleat and moan about other players having fun; have your own fun. Otherwise its just pathetic.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#429 - 2013-01-02 23:55:29 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
In short, you did a shittier job of it than empire did creating their high security space.

Yeah, we sure did a ****** job not putting 8 stations in every system with 100% refining and multiple manufacturing slots.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#430 - 2013-01-03 00:29:09 UTC
I think hisec is well balanced right now, its been nerfed a zillion times, yet still good enuff to make a living there and not have players unsub,

cos thats whatll happen if it keeps getting nerfed, cos few are going to go willingly into pointless Goon dominated Null sec, Very FEW.

Null Sec needs to be fixed,

Thats the whole issue here.

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#431 - 2013-01-03 00:32:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Mister Tuggles wrote:
High sec doesn't need nerfed anymore than it has been already. It is the most dangerous place in Eve to live/play.

This is absolute bullshit from start to finish.

Frying Doom wrote:
Yes Blue space is a problem but honestly what is there to fight for.

No, it isn't a problem, the problem lies in there not being enough people in null to actually make roaming around something to do on a regular basis in nullsec.

Murk Paradox wrote:
Why? You've been saying the problem is with highsec. Now you're saying it isn't?

He said hisec is "the absolute best game in town", which is a problem. Why should I bother mining in nullsec when it's readily available in hisec, with concord protection so I don't even have to spend any time protecting myself? Why should I bother manufacturing anything in nullsec when I can find a fucktonne of readily available manufacturing slots within 2 jumps of Jita?

Edit: I almost forgot to mention how, in nullsec, you can't realistically refine and manufacture in the same system (apart from using a POS), so hisec wins out in the convenience race there as well.

You're not seeing this as a problem, but it is. Nullsec should be one of the places where most people should want to go to to make money, however it isn't. The only thing nullsec is used for, largely, is PVP and supercap manufacture and some reaction, anything else is comparatively speaking inconsequential and more easily/better done in hisec. And this is wrong.

Murk Paradox wrote:
When people want pure lawless space, they go see null.

This is at the base of your problem with seeing how null should be, null isn't supposed to be "lawless space", it's supposed to be "NPC lawless space" and "player-lawful space", i.e. it should be a place where players went to live and make their own rules.

Currently the game mechanics dictate that what they do in nullsec is
1) Make supercaps
2) Some reaction
3) PVP

Indy? Why? We've got hisec for that.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#432 - 2013-01-03 00:39:24 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:

He said hisec is "the absolute best game in town", which is a problem. Why should I bother mining in nullsec when it's readily available in hisec, with concord protection so I don't even have to spend any time protecting myself? .



It is an absolute fallacy that if you just nerf the heck outta hisec mining, ALL the Miners will just flock to Null sec,

No they'll flock ouuta the game,

No matter How good your protection is as youre mining in Null sec, unless youre in a system surrounded by blues, theres always a Bigger Blob thatll kill everything you got and make your HOURS of effort useless.

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  

Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#433 - 2013-01-03 00:46:37 UTC
Peter Raptor wrote:
It is an absolute fallacy that if you just nerf the heck outta hisec mining, ALL the Miners will just flock to Null sec,

I did not say "nerf hisec mining", I said "mining is better in hisec". It's less effort, it's just as profitable (in fact, it's more profitable for vastly less effort) than nullsec, and literally every part of being an industrialist is better in hisec than it is in nullsec. This must change.

Peter Raptor wrote:
No they'll flock ouuta the game,

Stop being a drama queen, it does you no good.

Peter Raptor wrote:
No matter How good your protection is as youre mining in Null sec, unless youre in a system surrounded by blues, theres always a Bigger Blob thatll kill everything you got and make your HOURS of effort useless.

There's no reason to do anything industry-related in nullsec, because hisec can outperform it at literally every level, for vastly less effort and risk. Bitching about "a bigger blob" is irrelevant to this topic.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Peter Raptor
Galactic Hawks
#434 - 2013-01-03 01:28:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Raptor
Lord Zim wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
It is an absolute fallacy that if you just nerf the heck outta hisec mining, ALL the Miners will just flock to Null sec,

I did not say "nerf hisec mining", I said "mining is better in hisec". It's less effort, it's just as profitable (in fact, it's more profitable for vastly less effort) than nullsec, and literally every part of being an industrialist is better in hisec than it is in nullsec. This must change.

Peter Raptor wrote:
No they'll flock ouuta the game,

Stop being a drama queen, it does you no good.

Peter Raptor wrote:
No matter How good your protection is as youre mining in Null sec, unless youre in a system surrounded by blues, theres always a Bigger Blob thatll kill everything you got and make your HOURS of effort useless.

There's no reason to do anything industry-related in nullsec, because hisec can outperform it at literally every level, for vastly less effort and risk. Bitching about "a bigger blob" is irrelevant to this topic.



I agree with you, fix Null sec, its Broken, Null sec has Vastly superior asteroid belts to Hisec, but whats the point of that if you get killed and lose Billions instantanously, unless youre in a Sea of Blues??

The risk factor makes Nullsec industry very lousy, especialy with 75% POS refining yield, This has to be changed to 100% and add insta-refine to POSs too. POSs are another reason no one in their right mind wants to go to do industry in Null.

If you Buff POSs and give more protection in Null to individual miners somehow ( I don't know how this could be done, perhaps Mining Barges receive Buff when they enter Null, maybe +4 Warp Core Strength), perhaps more people would RISK it.

The "Bigger Blob" remark refers to the fact that no one in their right mind is going to risk their industry equipment worth hundreds of millions with zero protection in Null sec. So unless you join Goons, no point going to Null, even if you remove every asteroid from Empire.

Evelopedia; 

The Amarr Empire, is known for its omnipresent religion  †  

ILikeMarkets
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#435 - 2013-01-03 01:35:12 UTC
I would rather remain where the PvP is at, and nullsec ain't it.

I was a nullbear, once. Then I was dragged kicking and screaming out of my safe little sov space and actually forced into Low/High PvP land. I haven't looked back.

Proof that capital ships are rare in EVE: http://imgur.com/gallery/jJJE1

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#436 - 2013-01-03 02:21:42 UTC
ILikeMarkets wrote:
I would rather remain where the PvP is at, and nullsec ain't it.

I was a nullbear, once. Then I was dragged kicking and screaming out of my safe little sov space and actually forced into Low/High PvP land. I haven't looked back.

Royal Amarr Institute [RIN] from 2010.08.11 00:35 to this day
ILikeMarkets
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#437 - 2013-01-03 02:33:25 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
ILikeMarkets wrote:
I would rather remain where the PvP is at, and nullsec ain't it.

I was a nullbear, once. Then I was dragged kicking and screaming out of my safe little sov space and actually forced into Low/High PvP land. I haven't looked back.

Royal Amarr Institute [RIN] from 2010.08.11 00:35 to this day


le gasp! Could it possibly be a... forum alt? =D

Naw, no way. No one does that.

Proof that capital ships are rare in EVE: http://imgur.com/gallery/jJJE1

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#438 - 2013-01-03 02:36:31 UTC
Peter Raptor wrote:
I agree with you, fix Null sec, its Broken, Null sec has Vastly superior asteroid belts to Hisec, but whats the point of that if you get killed and lose Billions instantanously, unless youre in a Sea of Blues??

The risk factor makes Nullsec industry very lousy, especialy with 75% POS refining yield, This has to be changed to 100% and add insta-refine to POSs too. POSs are another reason no one in their right mind wants to go to do industry in Null.

If you Buff POSs and give more protection in Null to individual miners somehow ( I don't know how this could be done, perhaps Mining Barges receive Buff when they enter Null, maybe +4 Warp Core Strength), perhaps more people would RISK it.

The "Bigger Blob" remark refers to the fact that no one in their right mind is going to risk their industry equipment worth hundreds of millions with zero protection in Null sec. So unless you join Goons, no point going to Null, even if you remove every asteroid from Empire.

Null miners don't need more protection, they just need a reason to mine there. If industry is improved this will go a long way towards that goal.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#439 - 2013-01-03 03:23:12 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Peter Raptor wrote:
I agree with you, fix Null sec, its Broken, Null sec has Vastly superior asteroid belts to Hisec, but whats the point of that if you get killed and lose Billions instantanously, unless youre in a Sea of Blues??

The risk factor makes Nullsec industry very lousy, especialy with 75% POS refining yield, This has to be changed to 100% and add insta-refine to POSs too. POSs are another reason no one in their right mind wants to go to do industry in Null.

If you Buff POSs and give more protection in Null to individual miners somehow ( I don't know how this could be done, perhaps Mining Barges receive Buff when they enter Null, maybe +4 Warp Core Strength), perhaps more people would RISK it.

The "Bigger Blob" remark refers to the fact that no one in their right mind is going to risk their industry equipment worth hundreds of millions with zero protection in Null sec. So unless you join Goons, no point going to Null, even if you remove every asteroid from Empire.

Null miners don't need more protection, they just need a reason to mine there. If industry is improved this will go a long way towards that goal.

I think he means that for everyone but goons i needs a buff, whereas we need a nerf for being blue.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#440 - 2013-01-03 05:37:16 UTC
ILikeMarkets wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
ILikeMarkets wrote:
I would rather remain where the PvP is at, and nullsec ain't it.

I was a nullbear, once. Then I was dragged kicking and screaming out of my safe little sov space and actually forced into Low/High PvP land. I haven't looked back.

Royal Amarr Institute [RIN] from 2010.08.11 00:35 to this day


le gasp! Could it possibly be a... forum alt? =D

Naw, no way. No one does that.

Noone worth listening to anyway.