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ISK Sinks. What are they?
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Lexmana
#21 - 2013-01-02 09:57:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Thomas Gore wrote:
TharOkha wrote:
Speaking of sinks, it would be much better if we reduce faucets, rather than increasing sinks. Remove NPC bounties and replace them with LPs.... problem solved.


I'm pretty sure this would work. Concord LPs instead of ISK bounties. Coupled with the fact that LP stores are also ISK sinks this change would be massive.

It would be massive for sure but what would you do when all the liquid ISK in game has been sunk? Too much sink is in no way better than too much faucet. In fact, it is actually worse.
Frank Otichoda
Doomheim
#22 - 2013-01-02 10:38:42 UTC
The faucets, even with having missions give more lp/less isk would still be adding more isk to the game then it takes, but would lessen the amount. Or maybe increase sinks over faucets until economy balances out.

Maybe make a "if you have (input amount) of isk you get taxed (input amount). LETS TAX THE RICH!!!! DOWN WITH THE RICH!!!

Ahem.... Sorry..... Evil Democrats...
Abu Tarynnia
Kings-Guard
Sigma Grindset
#23 - 2013-01-02 10:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Abu Tarynnia
Frank Otichoda wrote:
The faucets, even with having missions give more lp/less isk would still be adding more isk to the game then it takes, but would lessen the amount. Or maybe increase sinks over faucets until economy balances out.

Maybe make a "if you have (input amount) of isk you get taxed (input amount). LETS TAX THE RICH!!!! DOWN WITH THE RICH!!!

Ahem.... Sorry..... Evil Democrats...


+1 ... since I always struggle to get the next ship and test this and that I am usually short of money .. 1billion should be fine ;)
Edit: I hope you only count account money .. not total value ... otherwise -1 !!!!

YOU CANNOT HAVE MY STUFF!!!!
Ottersmacker
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#24 - 2013-01-02 10:46:36 UTC
transmogrification

i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#25 - 2013-01-02 10:54:29 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Thomas Gore wrote:
TharOkha wrote:
Speaking of sinks, it would be much better if we reduce faucets, rather than increasing sinks. Remove NPC bounties and replace them with LPs.... problem solved.


I'm pretty sure this would work. Concord LPs instead of ISK bounties. Coupled with the fact that LP stores are also ISK sinks this change would be massive.

It would be massive for sure but what would you do when all the liquid ISK in game has been sunk? Too much sink is in no way better than too much faucet. In fact, it is actually worse.


As long as there are ways to make ISK (i.e. you gain more than you sink at any given activity), the amount of ISK in the game would never reach zero. Still, you are correct that it needs to balance out or items will become so expensive (in regards to liquid ISK at hand) that the market will stagnate and producing some items will become unprofitable.

However, the devs have all the power in their hand to both monitor the balance of ISK in the game and adjust the sinks and faucets. In short term the game would only benefit from losing total ISK from the market. There is just too much of it in the game.
Lexmana
#26 - 2013-01-02 10:57:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Frank Otichoda wrote:
The faucets, even with having missions give more lp/less isk would still be adding more isk to the game then it takes, but would lessen the amount. Or maybe increase sinks over faucets until economy balances out.

Actually, making all bounties completely payed out in LP instead of ISK would remove about half of all the ISK created in-game and make it a sink instead. It would create a negative ISK flow in EVE and eventually kill the game.

Interestingly, faucets and sinks should not be in absolute balance, because ISK that are stockpiled or left on in-active accounts act as a soft-sink. Though, it can upset the economy when people for some reason starts to release it and the velocity of money increase to cause inflation.
Lolar55
Banana Toaster
#27 - 2013-01-02 11:11:00 UTC
Lvl 4 missions are isk sink too.Ppl in golems and tengus dying to rats ain't rare thing.
Frank Otichoda
Doomheim
#28 - 2013-01-02 11:11:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Frank Otichoda
Oh, forgot another isk sink:
Somer Blink... Lol jking

Lolar, how are golems and tengus dieing an ISK sink?
Lexmana
#29 - 2013-01-02 11:12:17 UTC
Lolar55 wrote:
Lvl 4 missions are isk sink too.Ppl in golems and tengus dying to rats ain't rare thing.

That would make it an even bigger faucet due to insurance payout
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#30 - 2013-01-02 11:40:04 UTC
Not this topic again.

-Switch HighSec missions to LP rewards only.
-Reduce refining rates on highsec stations(so only 0.0 and 0.1-0.3 Lowsec can achieve 100% refine rate with skills)
-Increase research/manufacturing costs in high sec by a marginal rate(2-5% increase)
-Increase tax rates on market transactions, nothing astronomical though.
-Reduce insurance payouts again.
-Revert the anomaly nerf in 0.0, but reduce the bounty amounts and add more drops. to help make 0.0 more self-sufficient.
-Add a tax to the bounty system.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#31 - 2013-01-02 13:24:20 UTC
Tippia wrote:
This post has been brought to you by ⌘C and ⌘V


Dirty Mac using hippie.

But I think you get the deposit back on courier missions, so wouldn't that be ISK neutral for the most part?


I guess if you're just counting failed Courier missions, it's a teeny sink (and I've gone and answered my own question).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#32 - 2013-01-02 13:45:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
RubyPorto wrote:
Dirty Mac using hippie.

But I think you get the deposit back on courier missions, so wouldn't that be ISK neutral for the most part?

I guess if you're just counting failed Courier missions, it's a teeny sink (and I've gone and answered my own question).
Yes, it's that possibility that I want to account for — you'll notice that it shows up both as a sink and a faucet.

In general, I'd say that it's better not to try to “balance out” faucets and sinks that are meant to come in pairs like that because there's always the chance that they don't. It's the same as with insurance: it is designed to be a faucet, and overall, that's what it is. This doesn't change the fact that you can easily sink a crapton of ISK into it and never get a single ISK out, thus it appears in both places.

It's less a list of what activity makes the ISK supply go up or down in general, but of what specific action causes a point increase or decrease in that supply.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#33 - 2013-01-02 14:46:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Dirty Mac using hippie.

But I think you get the deposit back on courier missions, so wouldn't that be ISK neutral for the most part?

I guess if you're just counting failed Courier missions, it's a teeny sink (and I've gone and answered my own question).
Yes, it's that possibility that I want to account for — you'll notice that it shows up both as a sink and a faucet.

In general, I'd say that it's better not to try to “balance out” faucets and sinks that are meant to come in pairs like that because there's always the chance that they don't. It's the same as with insurance: it is designed to be a faucet, and overall, that's what it is. This doesn't change the fact that you can easily sink a crapton of ISK into it and never get a single ISK out, thus it appears in both places.

It's less a list of what activity makes the ISK supply go up or down in general, but of what specific action causes a point increase or decrease in that supply.



See, there's the problem. I didn't see deposit repayment in the faucet's list.

Carry on, and ignore the illiterati.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Skorpynekomimi
#34 - 2013-01-02 15:06:53 UTC
PLEX is another big ISK sink. Buying a plex with ISK and adding it as game time takes a good half a billion ISK out the system. Buying one with $ and selling it just gives you someone else's ISK.

Economic PVP
Rengerel en Distel
#35 - 2013-01-02 15:35:43 UTC
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
PLEX is another big ISK sink. Buying a plex with ISK and adding it as game time takes a good half a billion ISK out the system. Buying one with $ and selling it just gives you someone else's ISK.


When you buy a plex from someone else, how exactly is that taking isk out of the system?

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#36 - 2013-01-02 15:44:23 UTC
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
PLEX is another big ISK sink. Buying a plex with ISK and adding it as game time takes a good half a billion ISK out the system. Buying one with $ and selling it just gives you someone else's ISK.
No.

Aside from the transaction fees (which, granted, are decently large since it's such a high-volume high-price item), PLEX are completely economy-neutral. They neither add nor subtract ISK from the economy — they just shuffle it around between buyers and sellers.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#37 - 2013-01-02 17:16:31 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
PLEX is another big ISK sink. Buying a plex with ISK and adding it as game time takes a good half a billion ISK out the system. Buying one with $ and selling it just gives you someone else's ISK.


You realize that those two sentences represent mutually incompatible ideas of how PLEX works, right?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ginger Barbarella
#38 - 2013-01-02 17:20:42 UTC
I'd be curious if you "nerf hi sec!" idjuts considered things like the PI taxes and the cost of manufacturing T1 Meta 0 items for T2 manufacturing in your "added costs" mantra for high sec? Ya know, with the exception of a few items like drones, T1 meta 0 drops are over, now requiring their manufacture and adding to the cost calculations for T2 items that require them.

But then, you'll say this isn't enough. So once again, I've just wasted another 45 seconds of my life in a fail troll thread. Good job, Ginger. Oops

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#39 - 2013-01-02 17:26:40 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
I'd be curious if you "nerf hi sec!" idjuts considered things like the PI taxes and the cost of manufacturing T1 Meta 0 items for T2 manufacturing in your "added costs" mantra for high sec? Ya know, with the exception of a few items like drones, T1 meta 0 drops are over, now requiring their manufacture and adding to the cost calculations for T2 items that require them.
…and they're so insignificantly small as to pretty much be a rounding error in the overall economy. You could increase them by a factor of 10 before they became significant.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#40 - 2013-01-02 17:29:08 UTC
Tippia wrote:
:

    ........
  • GM Actions: Removal of bought ISK, Removal of insurance after ship reimbursement
    • ......

This post has been brought to you by ⌘C and ⌘V


New to add: Removal of botted ISK.

Also its not clear these should be counted as sinks, although it is ISK that cannot be flowing through the economy: Permanently banned accounts (The account, characters and ISK still are in the database, just not accessible) and inactive accounts.

CCP has said the biggest single sink is the LP store. Thus an effective way to buff sinks is to buff the LP store.

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