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Tormentor?
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Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-01-01 14:37:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Maire Gheren
So I have some Tormentors from the tutorial still, and it's a combat ship now... I figure that since i've got them, I may as well get them blown up. Lol

I haven't seen much about these. Mostly I just hear about Punisher and Executioner so far. How are people using them as a combat ship, and how well is it working out for them? Any favorite ways to fit them emerging so far? Was looking at taking them out to my local lowsec for lols, or maybe chasing some wreck looters around or some such entry level cheap pew thing. Not sure what they're working best doing so far.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#2 - 2013-01-01 17:15:32 UTC
Sadly the Tormentor, especially when laid alongside the Punisher, only creates evidence that "tieracide" hasn't lived up to it's claims.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-01-01 17:26:43 UTC
That's annoying; is there any specific problem with it? I still have trouble figuring how Punisher pilots deal with the midslot shortage, and the drones seemed like they might have added some versatility.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#4 - 2013-01-01 17:49:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Heck, all Amarr ships have a midslot shortage. It's how CCP enforces armor tanking on them. So the thing with Punisher is, not surprisingly, armor tank. Unlike most Amarr ships, however, it's actually good at it - it's one of the small handful that actually get armor resist bonuses as you skill up.

As for the Tormentor, it's not that there is anything wrong with it, it's just that it has nothing really going for it. Like all Amarr ships, it has weak shields (350 base HP). But it's armor is no better, either (450 base HP). It's only bonuses are 10% reduction in capacitor for small lasers (whooptie-do) and 5% bonus in damage for them. Lasers are have always been an underperforming weapon to begin with (this is normally when all the rich kids chime in with "scorch" and I ignore them because we're talking about noobie ships, a concept they can't seem to get through their thick skulls) so even at absolute max skill the end-game perk for a Tormentor is... +25% to small energy turret damage. That's it.

Someone with money to burn could just as easily buy a Succubus and be able to fly it inside of week (it only takes Amarr Frigate 3 and Caldari Frigate 3, if you've got the cash) ... a ship that starts with +100% small energy turret damage and only goes up from there. And unlike anything the Amarr have, the Succubus does have enough mid slots (4 in fact). Of course, it also costs a small fortune.

And that, I suppose, is the only thing the Tormento actually does have going for it: It's cheap. So it can be effective in the sense that a company with a hundred players could field massive swarms of them with little effort. Of course in reality that theory bears no fruit because companies with a hundred players in them make enough money that they can all afford to fly better ships.

Which just goes to prove that "tieracide" is in reality just a funny way of saying "money does indeed buy happiness."

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#5 - 2013-01-01 17:59:12 UTC
I have a corpmate that swears by them. His fit is close to:

High:
Gatling Pulse Lasers II x 3
Mid:
AB
Meta web
Meta scramble
Low:
DC II
ANP II
400mm rolled tungsten
Heat Sink II
Rigs:
Trimarks x 3

Hobgoblin II or Warrior II x 2

AB is very viable with the new plexes in FW.
Denuo Secus
#6 - 2013-01-01 19:00:59 UTC
The cap bonus helps to fly it like a Slicer. Compared to a kiting Executioner: less speed but more damage.

Or armor tank it and fly it like a Tristan. Less damage from drones but one additional low slot + nice projection of lasers in exchange. Scram range kiting, because in blaster range the Tormentor cannot compete with blaster frigs.
Ares Desideratus
UNSAFE SPACE
#7 - 2013-01-01 20:52:00 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Heck, all Amarr ships have a midslot shortage. It's how CCP enforces armor tanking on them. So the thing with Punisher is, not surprisingly, armor tank. Unlike most Amarr ships, however, it's actually good at it - it's one of the small handful that actually get armor resist bonuses as you skill up.

As for the Tormentor, it's not that there is anything wrong with it, it's just that it has nothing really going for it. Like all Amarr ships, it has weak shields (350 base HP). But it's armor is no better, either (450 base HP). It's only bonuses are 10% reduction in capacitor for small lasers (whooptie-do) and 5% bonus in damage for them. Lasers are have always been an underperforming weapon to begin with (this is normally when all the rich kids chime in with "scorch" and I ignore them because we're talking about noobie ships, a concept they can't seem to get through their thick skulls) so even at absolute max skill the end-game perk for a Tormentor is... +25% to small energy turret damage. That's it.

Someone with money to burn could just as easily buy a Succubus and be able to fly it inside of week (it only takes Amarr Frigate 3 and Caldari Frigate 3, if you've got the cash) ... a ship that starts with +100% small energy turret damage and only goes up from there. And unlike anything the Amarr have, the Succubus does have enough mid slots (4 in fact). Of course, it also costs a small fortune.

And that, I suppose, is the only thing the Tormento actually does have going for it: It's cheap. So it can be effective in the sense that a company with a hundred players could field massive swarms of them with little effort. Of course in reality that theory bears no fruit because companies with a hundred players in them make enough money that they can all afford to fly better ships.

Which just goes to prove that "tieracide" is in reality just a funny way of saying "money does indeed buy happiness."

Alright dude, that's enough, both the Succubus and the Punisher are just, just... *sigh*
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#8 - 2013-01-01 21:41:17 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:

As for the Tormentor, it's not that there is anything wrong with it, it's just that it has nothing really going for it. Like all Amarr ships, it has weak shields (350 base HP). But it's armor is no better, either (450 base HP). It's only bonuses are 10% reduction in capacitor for small lasers (whooptie-do) and 5% bonus in damage for them. Lasers are have always been an underperforming weapon to begin with (this is normally when all the rich kids chime in with "scorch" and I ignore them because we're talking about noobie ships, a concept they can't seem to get through their thick skulls) so even at absolute max skill the end-game perk for a Tormentor is... +25% to small energy turret damage. That's it.


Since the revamp the Tormentor is NOT a noob ship! It is a perfectly viable combat frig for amarr pilots now.

Basically Punisher is your 'Tanky' Combat frig and the Tormentor is the 'Ganky' combat frig. I like the tormentor as it has the 3 mid slot for full tackle and the combination of lasers and drones can put out decent DPS for a T1 frig. I've even killed brawling DD's with mine so don't be put off by the naysays fit them up and go get them blown up.

For general low sec pvp then the above fit is fine go and have fun.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-01-01 21:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Maire Gheren
Quote:
Quote:
Lasers are have always been an underperforming weapon to begin with (this is normally when all the rich kids chime in with "scorch" and I ignore them because we're talking about noobie ships, a concept they can't seem to get through their thick skulls)
Since the revamp the Tormentor is NOT a noob ship! It is a perfectly viable combat frig for amarr pilots now.
I think the point was that you cannot claim that a weapon system intended for use by people who cannot yet use Tech-2 fittings is balanced just because the tech-2 version works fine.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#10 - 2013-01-01 22:21:07 UTC
I know a few guys in RVB have had quite succes with that ship. One of them even engineered a dualrep fit, which is quite good.

So if you need a good fit, check the RVB killboards.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#11 - 2013-01-01 23:30:44 UTC
Maire Gheren wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Lasers are have always been an underperforming weapon to begin with (this is normally when all the rich kids chime in with "scorch" and I ignore them because we're talking about noobie ships, a concept they can't seem to get through their thick skulls)
Since the revamp the Tormentor is NOT a noob ship! It is a perfectly viable combat frig for amarr pilots now.
I think the point was that you cannot claim that a weapon system intended for use by people who cannot yet use Tech-2 fittings is balanced just because the tech-2 version works fine.


The point is that most weapons systems are enhanced significantly by their T2 ammo upgrades!

I us navy MF just as much if not more when I fly amarr ships so no scorch is not the be all and end all of pulse lasers. That is just like saying barrage is the only ammo you use with small AC's. Pah!

Lasers are a vaiable weapons system just as are hybrids and projectiles. Both T1 and T2. They each have their own quirks and issues that you need to learn to make the weapons system perform well.

And as for T2 small lasers (or any small weapon for that matter) being a 'rick kids toy' or an advanced system, it takes about 1 week of training to be able to use them and they don't cost that much either. Get over yourselves and you selfrightious crap. To take a weapon system you balance out some of the issue using T1 with 'advance' T2 ammo. Lasers are no different to projectiles and hybrid in this respect unless you want to hermoginise the entire line up of weapons.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2013-01-02 01:39:47 UTC
Buying T2 guns would probably quintuple the cost of my ship, and that would put the cost to the point where I would not be able to replace them readily, thus violating "don't fly what you cant afford to replace". T2 weapon balance doesn't mean you can ignore T1 weapon balance.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#13 - 2013-01-02 01:49:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Taoist Dragon
Maire Gheren wrote:
Buying T2 guns would probably quintuple the cost of my ship, and that would put the cost to the point where I would not be able to replace them readily, thus violating "don't fly what you cant afford to replace". T2 weapon balance doesn't mean you can ignore T1 weapon balance.



True T2 balance doesn't obesolete T1 balance.

For small lasers though most ppl seem to think scorch or GTFO but I find I use navy MF just as much as scorch tbh.

It realy is down to how lasers operate and fly to that tactic tbh.

when talking T1 then blasters have it much worse than lasers so If you want to fly the Tormentor then go meta and use navy MF. You jsut need to seetup the fight so you are fighting in your range. Also can you use T2 drones? if not then tbh Punisher > Torm


Edit: As for cost I generally loot to about 10-12mil isk for a fitted frig with T2/high meta items......fairly easy to keep these flowing :)

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#14 - 2013-01-02 11:08:39 UTC
Maire Gheren wrote:
Buying T2 guns would probably quintuple the cost of my ship, and that would put the cost to the point where I would not be able to replace them readily, thus violating "don't fly what you cant afford to replace". T2 weapon balance doesn't mean you can ignore T1 weapon balance.


Well thats the main problem with amarr ships. They will really only shine with t2 guns since scorch adds so much flexibility. However it is possible to use beams as poor man's scorch, but then you have to rely on kiting since the tracking will be bad.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Cyrvys en Distel
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-01-02 21:54:26 UTC
Maire Gheren wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Lasers are have always been an underperforming weapon to begin with (this is normally when all the rich kids chime in with "scorch" and I ignore them because we're talking about noobie ships, a concept they can't seem to get through their thick skulls)
Since the revamp the Tormentor is NOT a noob ship! It is a perfectly viable combat frig for amarr pilots now.
I think the point was that you cannot claim that a weapon system intended for use by people who cannot yet use Tech-2 fittings is balanced just because the tech-2 version works fine.


A key point to remember, though, is that just because a ship is easily accessible to newbies, does not mean it is necessarily intended for them, an example case: Typhoon, a pilot who can indeed fly that class of ship, and maybe even fly that class well, could fly a Typhoon horribly. But a more seasoned, and or Typhoon centered pilot can make that thing a terrifying site on a battlefield. The Tormentor is now the same way.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#16 - 2013-01-02 22:10:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
The Tormentor is a less-tanky punisher with more range and midslots.

As others have said it benefits a lot from t2 weapons due to Scorch. However, it's very workable as a full t1 ship (minus T1 drones, as t2 drones are IMO too good to pass up). It's best used as a high-damage scram-range kiter, like so:

[Tormentor, T1 scram kite beams]

Damage Control I
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
F-aQ Phase Code Tracking Subroutines
Adaptive Nano Plating I

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Small Focused Anode Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Small Focused Anode Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Small Focused Anode Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S

Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Energy Collision Accelerator I


Hobgoblin II x2



Somewhat squishy but you do good damage (121 DPS no heat) out to scram range with a web (which is something big that the punisher does not have). Only downside is that it has beams and thus if something ~does~ manage to get close you'll have issues. You could swap the MWD for an AB and make it nigh impossible to catch you, but this comes with all the vulnerabilities of an AB.


Can also do a pulse fit like so:

[Tormentor, T1 scram kite pulses]

Damage Control I
200mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
F-aQ Phase Code Tracking Subroutines
Adaptive Nano Plating I

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Small Focused Anode Pulse Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Xray S
Small Focused Anode Pulse Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Xray S
Small Focused Anode Pulse Particle Stream I, Imperial Navy Xray S

Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Locus Coordinator I
Small Energy Collision Accelerator I


Hobgoblin II x2

With a little bit less range/damage, but no tracking problems.

Scorch is nice, but I'd argue that with a proper fit you can easily exploit the optimal advantage of pulses without it.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#17 - 2013-01-03 03:12:42 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Sadly the Tormentor, especially when laid alongside the Punisher, only creates evidence that "tieracide" hasn't lived up to it's claims.



Tormentor is better than the punisher.

2 mids is ******* useless against anything but retards.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-01-03 04:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: The VC's
Maire Gheren wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Lasers are have always been an underperforming weapon to begin with (this is normally when all the rich kids chime in with "scorch" and I ignore them because we're talking about noobie ships, a concept they can't seem to get through their thick skulls)
Since the revamp the Tormentor is NOT a noob ship! It is a perfectly viable combat frig for amarr pilots now.
I think the point was that you cannot claim that a weapon system intended for use by people who cannot yet use Tech-2 fittings is balanced just because the tech-2 version works fine.


Respectfully guys, pass the bong.

The Tormentor is Amarr's best kept secret.

Shield/mwd/disruptor kiter, +1
8km scram/web kiter, +1
close brawler +1

To name a few.


As to T2 guns. More than any weapon system, if you want to shoot lasers, either you train pulse spec 4 minimum or you leave lasers alone. Amarr ships are for the most part just big rocks. They, more than any other race need some sp investment.

And it's not just about the scorch. With instant ammo swaps you can use conflag when you see the chance, like when they are webbed and approaching or running away. Which is often the case with blaster boats.

That the Tormentor is still a 'tutorial ship' is a pre-inferno throwback. It's now the frig amarr pilots have been wanting for years.

Try this fit

gatlings
mwd
scram
web
400mm plate
hs
dc
anp
2 trimarks
1 acr
hobs
bawbags
murder
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#19 - 2013-01-03 05:21:23 UTC
the executioner is way sexier though.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

galenwade
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-01-03 06:48:47 UTC
The VC's wrote:

Respectfully guys, pass the bong.

The Tormentor is Amarr's best kept secret.




Pretty much this, punisher can still hold a bigger tank, but what is the point of that tank when everything can/will kite you to death.


And yea the executioner is sexy.


In regards to Tech2 lasers, Scorch is good BUT do not forget to carry multispec . You will need it when some bastard in an atron tries to err mate with your ship.