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Crime & Punishment

 
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CEO's Corp Dropping to Avoid War Decs
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Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#21 - 2012-12-28 06:03:31 UTC
Ian Harms wrote:

Ya know in RL to have a corporation you need a support staff, a board of directors, if we made it necessary for corps in eve to have multiple players to begin a corp (maybe 5 toons with certain skills trained) we'd have less crap corps, and possibly insure more corps succeed as any corp needs multiple leaders to manage it.


IRL you can't wardec a corporation.


Khador Vess
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2012-12-29 00:56:23 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:

IRL you can't wardec a corporation.



The Wardec mechanism, as flawed as it still is, is the game's analog of several RL tactics for attacking a competitors business...

Ian Harms wrote:

Ya know in RL to have a corporation you need a support staff, a board of directors, if we made it necessary for corps in eve to have multiple players to begin a corp (maybe 5 toons with certain skills trained) we'd have less crap corps, and possibly insure more corps succeed as any corp needs multiple leaders to manage it.



IRL i can create a corporation with my wife as the secretary and me as the sole director, thats it... nothing else required so im afraid the 'support staff' bit doesnt really wash...IMHO we need to encourage people to move out of NPC corps, (and i believe the 11% tax is not enough of an incentive... give them more incentives to leave please CCP) and things like raising the bar to creating corps works against this... I take on board the point about more corps being successful with a stronger leadership / larger leadership base, but if a single guy and his alts wants to run a corp so he can run a pos and do research more power to him, but with great power comes great responsibility...

Corp hopping sucks, but if someone is willing to lose the corp name etc and burn it to avoid a wardec, then meh, screw them, dec the new corp and raise the ransom when you catch them...
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-12-29 08:40:27 UTC
FeralShadow wrote:
Make it cost 50mil to start a new corp. No timers, no nothin. it costs 50mil to dec them, so the 50mil will mean that the corp dissolver is losing as much as the war deccer is.

Problem solved.


Because 50m is significant somehow right?
Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#24 - 2012-12-29 09:49:25 UTC
Xolve wrote:
FeralShadow wrote:
Make it cost 50mil to start a new corp. No timers, no nothin. it costs 50mil to dec them, so the 50mil will mean that the corp dissolver is losing as much as the war deccer is.

Problem solved.


Because 50m is significant somehow right?


yeah i'm not even good and thats like, 3 hours mining at most

"If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#25 - 2012-12-29 19:02:34 UTC
Khador Vess wrote:



The Wardec mechanism, as flawed as it still is, is the game's analog of several RL tactics for attacking a competitors business...



I fail to see any.

If I'm in a civilised country (let's compare this to High-Sec), there's no way someone can attack and destroy, legally, my assets.

they can try to screw my market, which is also true in this game.
they can try to poach my employee (pilots), which is also true in this game.
they can try to undermine my credibility...

this game corporation and market mechanism is somewhat already pretty close to IRL, except for the wardec mechanism, which, in my opinion, is still only a way to grief others.

Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#26 - 2012-12-29 19:57:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tah'ris Khlador
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
except for the wardec mechanism, which, in my opinion, is still only a way to grief others.


HTFU and go move some freight or something. What the hell do you think the war dec mechanic is going to be for? Holding hands and singing songs while we discuss the latest industry movements?

I want what you have, so I'm going to war dec to kill you for it!

I mean really, this is EVE, not Hello Kitty Online.

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#27 - 2012-12-29 20:08:41 UTC
Xolve wrote:
FeralShadow wrote:
Make it cost 50mil to start a new corp. No timers, no nothin. it costs 50mil to dec them, so the 50mil will mean that the corp dissolver is losing as much as the war deccer is.

Problem solved.


Because 50m is significant somehow right?


The point is that its the same cost as wardecing them.
Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#28 - 2012-12-29 20:26:59 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
The point is that its the same cost as wardecing them.


I understand his point, the man wants his legal space jihad against whoever he feels like deccing, and if they ditch the corp they are out just as much isk as he is. Given WarDecs past history as a tool for taking the **** out of harmless mission runners, mining corps, and many industrials on station undocks, I think the balance of 2m to join the corp, 50m to dec it whenever you feel the need is currently intact.

This thread is essentially a whine about someone who dec'd a corp who folded their corp, and started another one. My point however was, as long as the cost to create a corp is less than the cost of the ships members of the dec'd corp fly, corps will continue to fold regardless of price. Regardless, 50m isk is a trivial sum anyway you look at it- even if they raise the cost of forming corps, how will you force people to log in under a wardec once their corp is dec'd and the price to roll a new corp is so unequivocally high they don't want to pay it?
Elrich Kouvo
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-12-29 20:34:39 UTC
FeralShadow wrote:
Make it cost 50mil to start a new corp. No timers, no nothin. it costs 50mil to dec them, so the 50mil will mean that the corp dissolver is losing as much as the war deccer is.

Problem solved.

War decers pay concord 50mil to look the other way. Who are you paying 50mil to and for what reason?
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#30 - 2012-12-29 20:40:35 UTC
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
except for the wardec mechanism, which, in my opinion, is still only a way to grief others.


HTFU and go move some freight or something. What the hell do you think the war dec mechanic is going to be for? Holding hands and singing songs while we discuss the latest industry movements?

I want what you have, so I'm going to war dec to kill you for it!

I mean really, this is EVE, not Hello Kitty Online.


well, if you really want something, go build/buy it yourself. with wardec, you can only destroy.

Now, if you wardec my corp (and i'm not talking about Red Frog Freight, because there's nothing worth deccing for in it) why would I stay in that corp? I just need to have a backup corp and move my character there.

the only real high-sec risk in this game is ganking. Non-mutual wardec brings nothing to this game.

Khador Vess
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#31 - 2012-12-29 22:57:34 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
Khador Vess wrote:



The Wardec mechanism, as flawed as it still is, is the game's analog of several RL tactics for attacking a competitors business...



I fail to see any.

If I'm in a civilised country (let's compare this to High-Sec), there's no way someone can attack and destroy, legally, my assets.

they can try to screw my market, which is also true in this game.
they can try to poach my employee (pilots), which is also true in this game.
they can try to undermine my credibility...

this game corporation and market mechanism is somewhat already pretty close to IRL, except for the wardec mechanism, which, in my opinion, is still only a way to grief others.



This is where i believe your analogy breaks down... EvE does not model a civilsed country, its the wild west, its the outback, its the unexplored reaches... it certainly is not civilised.

In any case, plenty of 'civilised countries' where i do business on a weekly / monthly basis operate on the principal that if i want to do business with someone... rather large brown envelopes are the done thing... (hey dont judge...) if i dont like what a competitor is doing i can wreck any chance them being able to do business in that teritory with some well placed envelopes... if i want them gone, there are plenty of territories where..... well lets not go into that particular rabbit hole.

Restricting War Decs, removing them or making them more expensive will not fix the issue. There are legitimate reasons for creating corps and / or dropping out of them them quickly / in quick succession (for example premade corps and standings services) but IMHO you should not restrict peoples ability to corp hop like this... its a game mechanic just like the War Decs... as i said before the more annoying a target becomes the sweeter it will be when you catch them in the end...
FeralShadow
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-12-31 16:38:27 UTC  |  Edited by: FeralShadow
It's not even that 50mil is significant. It's the fact that currently you wardec someone and they dissolve the corp and reform it because it's vastly less expensive for them than it is for you to keep war deccing them. Bringing the prices up to be the same will either make it so people don't want to spend 50mil (it can add up) to reform, or at the very least ensure that if the corp is chickening out that they suffer 50mil isk worth of "damages" for the 50mil investment the aggressors had to do. Then if the aggressor wants to keep war deccing, at least the target is spending the same as the aggressor.

If instead of folding their corp they simply avoid logging in for a week, that's fine. At least they're not playing, and you're getting some return out of your investment. You ever wonder why James 315 never gets killed? People have war decced him many times, he simply folds his corp and remakes it because it's so much cheaper to do so, and then he continues playing.

Edit: Looking for a "plausible reason" for spending 50mil creating a corporation is fallacy. You can come up with numerous reasons why 50mil is too much, or why 50mil isn't enough.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Ahvram
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-12-31 16:40:25 UTC
Welcome to the only defence small corps have against large pirate and griefer corps.
FeralShadow
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-12-31 16:43:57 UTC
That is HARDLY the only defense. People don't like being creative and coming up with solutions, they would much rather use outdated mechanics to cheat the system.

Can't say I blame them, it's certainly easier than fighting yourself, or getting mercs, or staying docked up for a week. That doesn't make it any less dumb.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#35 - 2012-12-31 17:10:24 UTC
Zol Interbottom wrote:
War Decs against individual players?


Look at James 315's employment history and get back to me on that.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight
Red-Frog
#36 - 2012-12-31 21:03:11 UTC
FeralShadow wrote:
That is HARDLY the only defense. People don't like being creative and coming up with solutions, they would much rather use outdated mechanics to cheat the system.

Can't say I blame them, it's certainly easier than fighting yourself, or getting mercs, or staying docked up for a week. That doesn't make it any less dumb.


yeah, because a corp of miner, even missionner, is always well skilled for PVP, and we all love to pay for a week of doing nothing but look at a station.

getting mercs is also useless, the chance they play at the same time you do, and/or the cost of it would ruin any profit made from those things.

Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-12-31 21:20:12 UTC
FeralShadow wrote:
Edit: Looking for a "plausible reason" for spending 50mil creating a corporation is fallacy. You can come up with numerous reasons why 50mil is too much, or why 50mil isn't enough.


Look- not all players are PvP-centric, some people (much to my abhorrence) actually like mining and shooting little red boxes. Just because you paid some trivial fee to war dec a corporation at your leisure doesn't mean you should trap them into a war, or force them to play.

The can not log in for a week, and sit you out; or they can move half the world away in some little Hi-Sec island surrounded by Low-Sec. Either way, demanding you get PvP for 50m is pretty laughable request. Do you also think that if you wardec a corp that doesn't generate any kills that you should get a refund? I mean you did pay a whole fifty million isk for the war, right?
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#38 - 2012-12-31 22:15:32 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
with wardec, you can only destroy.


That would be the point, yes.

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
VegasMirage
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#39 - 2012-12-31 22:35:26 UTC
Red Frog Rufen wrote:
Ian Harms wrote:

Ya know in RL to have a corporation you need a support staff, a board of directors, if we made it necessary for corps in eve to have multiple players to begin a corp (maybe 5 toons with certain skills trained) we'd have less crap corps, and possibly insure more corps succeed as any corp needs multiple leaders to manage it.


IRL you can't wardec a corporation.




confirming we need Eve to be more like RL

no more games... it's real this time!!!
FeralShadow
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#40 - 2013-01-01 00:40:35 UTC
Yes, clearly not everybody is pvp-centric. That is a choice that each of us make when we play this game, and every choice, even those, have consequences. Not being able to defend yourself in a meaningful way is a consequence. I'm simply saying that a 50mil isk war dec fee and 50mil isk corp formation fee balances it out for both sides. You want to remake? Fine. Go ahead. Each of you can make the other poor through 50mil isk fees, or figure out a way to fix it without running to the mechanics for the answer.

You know, in this game that involves other players, you can't always play your way. I can't always play mine, either.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia