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Low DPS + FW = A lot of fail

Author
Tiberius StarGazer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-12-31 01:04:22 UTC
Really getting into FW and making some good money, which is great, Im not too chocked up about losing 10m fit ships.

What I not seem to be able to get my head round is how my DPS just sucks so hard.

If you check my killboard my Corax was blown to bits by a condor! I learned I really needed double webs from now on.

Didn't even get its shields down.

So I try rockets and my Hookbill with lots of lovely missile bonuses.

Better DPS, can take out faction destroyers with it.

But against other pilots... Hardly a scratch.

Im training up for the T2 stuff, but then we are looking at expensive territory.

Am I just totally missing something here? How do you make a ship pack a serious punch without breaking the bank?
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2012-12-31 01:28:21 UTC
T2 guns are the way to go for dps in PvP. Some ships, the guns will be more expensive than the hull. Just the way it works.

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#3 - 2012-12-31 01:37:20 UTC
What are the fits you are using? Max-gank Corax should be getting 200+ DPS. Also... Condors are bad mojo for any close range ship.
Luke Visteen
#4 - 2012-12-31 01:43:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Luke Visteen
Even if you train for a T2 weapon, the dps without well trained support skills will be very low, even only 40% of the max possible dps.

Check the "Turret Control" and "Missile Control" certificates for them. If you want to increase your dps fast load your ship fitting into EFT, right click on the weapon and try manually setting weapon skills levels (like rapid firing / surgical strike / gunnery for turrets) and see how they are affecting your dps. Then make an optimal skill plan in EVEMon, just play with EFT and determine which of the support skills benefits your dps the most, etc, etc, etc.

With lvl 4 support skills you can get up to 80% of your weapon dps (roughly). With the skills which directly affect the dps trained to V it's about 93% (surgical strike, gunnery, rapid firing) - depending on the weapon size the percentage can decrease.

I know you that you wrote that you are more interested in missiles but the it's really the same story (warhead upgrades, rapid launch, missile launcher operation).

.

Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-12-31 02:52:30 UTC
Also, frigates, especially assault frigates and interceptors, can mitigate missile damage through the use of raw speed - that's where the explosion velocity of a missile comes into play. (That's also how the much-maligned faction-mission-running stealth bombers survive - through maintaining high speeds, and more importantly, a high speed-to-signature ratio.)

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt

Mich Farmer
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2012-12-31 11:13:36 UTC
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:
Am I just totally missing something here? How do you make a ship pack a serious punch without breaking the bank?


Looking at your Corax fit, we see it's light missile fit. If you had a rocket fit, then condor could, in theory, kite you with light missiles but if you switched to javelin rockets he would have a hard time maintaining safe range and would probably eventually take enough hits to force him out.

However, you had light missile fit so condor should not have much hope except your fit had some issues. For starters, you use meta 1 missile launchers which have an anemic rate of fire and the condor should be able to handle several volleys without much issues, especially if it has medium shield extender or medium ancillary shield booster.

Second, you have no tank at all in your Corax which means pretty much anything chews you to bits faster than you can do the same. You might want to look for a fit along these lines (I dont know your skills so it's just theory crafting for t1)

[Corax, light]
Cross-linked Bolt Array I
F85 Peripheral Damage System I

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Fleeting Warp Disruptor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I

Do note that light missile Corax is extremely tight to fit if you want full rack of light missiles (indeed, some people drop to 6 launchers for this very reason) and unless you have max skills, you might need to either put a power diagnostic or micro auxiliary core to low-slot or use rigs for anc router and/or co-processor

Your best bet is to join an existing FW corp for some more fitting tips. Seeing your usual area of operations (based on killmails), I would recommend contacting Cory Braum from Dark Circle enforcement.
Nad'x Hapax
Hapaxa
#7 - 2012-12-31 11:24:54 UTC
Noone have told u so Ill do ahed and give u the best tip yet. Find something to make money on!

Missioning, Manufacturing, exploring, research or whatever your imagination tells u. U cant fund pvp with pvp. U may get lucky once in a while but, u know
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
Meta Reloaded
#8 - 2012-12-31 18:32:01 UTC
Mich Farmer wrote:
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:
Am I just totally missing something here? How do you make a ship pack a serious punch without breaking the bank?


Looking at your Corax fit, we see it's light missile fit. If you had a rocket fit, then condor could, in theory, kite you with light missiles but if you switched to javelin rockets he would have a hard time maintaining safe range and would probably eventually take enough hits to force him out.

However, you had light missile fit so condor should not have much hope except your fit had some issues. For starters, you use meta 1 missile launchers which have an anemic rate of fire and the condor should be able to handle several volleys without much issues, especially if it has medium shield extender or medium ancillary shield booster.

Second, you have no tank at all in your Corax which means pretty much anything chews you to bits faster than you can do the same. You might want to look for a fit along these lines (I dont know your skills so it's just theory crafting for t1)

[Corax, light]
Cross-linked Bolt Array I
F85 Peripheral Damage System I

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Fleeting Warp Disruptor I
Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Small F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction

Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile
Upgraded 'Malkuth' Light Missile Launcher, Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I
Small Core Defense Field Extender I

Do note that light missile Corax is extremely tight to fit if you want full rack of light missiles (indeed, some people drop to 6 launchers for this very reason) and unless you have max skills, you might need to either put a power diagnostic or micro auxiliary core to low-slot or use rigs for anc router and/or co-processor

Your best bet is to join an existing FW corp for some more fitting tips. Seeing your usual area of operations (based on killmails), I would recommend contacting Cory Braum from Dark Circle enforcement.

This fit is ok for the most part, but small shield extenders are utterly useless. You would be better off fitting another Invuln. Try out rockets, of course light missile boats will kite you, but that is just a fact of life.

Corax: Rocket grapist

Highs:
Upgraded "Malkuth" Rocket Launcher I x7

Mids:
Limited 1mn Microwarpdrive I
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator I
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

Lows:
Cross Linked Bolt Array I
Emergency Damage Control I

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone

Corelyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-01-02 07:59:24 UTC
Better get yourself a Loki leadership alt while your at it.
Cable Udan
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#10 - 2013-01-02 08:15:52 UTC
Nad'x Hapax wrote:
Noone have told u so Ill do ahed and give u the best tip yet. Find something to make money on!

Missioning, Manufacturing, exploring, research or whatever your imagination tells u. U cant fund pvp with pvp. U may get lucky once in a while but, u know


Not sure if srs.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#11 - 2013-01-02 15:17:14 UTC
Tiberius StarGazer wrote:

Im training up for the T2 stuff, but then we are looking at expensive territory.


Get this idea out of your head. T2 fittings are generally considered baseline, not fancy.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Gah'Matar
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#12 - 2013-01-02 21:39:24 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Get this idea out of your head. T2 fittings are generally considered baseline, not fancy.


This.

Do some plexing, monetize the LPs, pay for 10 destroyer T2 fit (150-300m depending on fit / destroyer).

That's like 4 BC or 6 cruisers or 20-40 frigates.

The thing is, the T2 fittings, faction ammo and experience is what will improve your odds of coming up ahead. Eve is a game of stacking up small percentage gains into large differences. So stack up all the little bonus you can. All those skills and all those slightly better mods matter.

Join a good corp, have 'em look over you character skills and help you make smart decisions about what to train, how to fit, how to fly. Learn the ships, how they're flown and what you can and can't do.

Also, discard anything you ever read / heard about a ship before it got tiericided. The new T1 ships are lean and mean. A slasher is fully capable of killing thrasher. A condor, killing a corax and an Incursus can actually wait for a Corax to run out of ammo before killing it.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#13 - 2013-01-02 22:42:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
T1 fits are fine. Of course, you should expect to be outclassed in general by an equivalent t2-fit ships but the ability to just throw ships to the wind and see what killmails you get is not to be underestimated. The cost/performance of a t1 fit is far and away better than a t2 fit. Furthermore, for a newbie, it's better (both in terms of fun and experience) to get 20 fights and lose 15 of them before running out of ISK than get 5 fights and losing 2 of them.

OP: Your fit was completely and entirely untanked. You had an empty low slot, which is a terrible idea. If you plan on 1v1ing with a Corax then you are going to need some tank. Drop the target painter; a corax with its explosion velocity bonus does not need it. Even consider dropping the tracking disruptor. Get a medium shield extender or ancillary shield booster at the minimum.

Also fill that damn second low slot. Either that or another ballistic control unit. With a better fit (assuming proper support skills) you would have taken that Condor with no problems. And for a solo fit, rockets (combined with the Corax' range bonus) should be more than sufficient. Don't waste all your fitting resources on LMLs you won't really be able to use.


With a better fit you would've killed the condor without an issue.

Quote:
The thing is, the T2 fittings, faction ammo and experience is what will improve your odds of coming up ahead. Eve is a game of stacking up small percentage gains into large differences. So stack up all the little bonus you can. All those skills and all those slightly better mods matter.


This is terrible logic. PVP is not about spending as much ISK as you can on the shiniest ship you can find. With a t1 fit you be less likely to win an individual fight but you will be able to afford a lot more fights. Choosing to fly a weaker but cheaper ship is perfectly valid.
Corelyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-01-03 18:12:23 UTC
Quote:

This is terrible logic. PVP is not about spending as much ISK as you can on the shiniest ship you can find. With a t1 fit you be less likely to win an individual fight but you will be able to afford a lot more fights. Choosing to fly a weaker but cheaper ship is perfectly valid.


If you don't mind losing. In a fleet I agree with you though.
kraiklyn Asatru
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-01-03 18:21:25 UTC
Corelyn wrote:
Quote:

This is terrible logic. PVP is not about spending as much ISK as you can on the shiniest ship you can find. With a t1 fit you be less likely to win an individual fight but you will be able to afford a lot more fights. Choosing to fly a weaker but cheaper ship is perfectly valid.


If you don't mind losing. In a fleet I agree with you though.


Losing teaches you a lot, the only people who worry about the numbers are those who mastrubate to their killboard and find soloing in a boosted 100mn ab tengu vs frigs as the pinnacle of elite pvp. If you are new to pvp flying a lot in cheap **** teaches you the most. There is always time to become a docked up bittervet forumwarrior who only pvps in 'pro' ships later.

Zoe Panala
Blobcats
#16 - 2013-01-03 18:33:23 UTC
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
Corelyn wrote:
Quote:

This is terrible logic. PVP is not about spending as much ISK as you can on the shiniest ship you can find. With a t1 fit you be less likely to win an individual fight but you will be able to afford a lot more fights. Choosing to fly a weaker but cheaper ship is perfectly valid.


If you don't mind losing. In a fleet I agree with you though.


Losing teaches you a lot, the only people who worry about the numbers are those who mastrubate to their killboard and find soloing in a boosted 100mn ab tengu vs frigs as the pinnacle of elite pvp. If you are new to pvp flying a lot in cheap **** teaches you the most. There is always time to become a docked up bittervet forumwarrior who only pvps in 'pro' ships later.



Finally the amarr spy in triad is exposed.
Gah'Matar
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#17 - 2013-01-03 18:55:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Gah'Matar
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
Losing teaches you a lot, the only people who worry about the numbers are those who mastrubate to their killboard and find soloing in a boosted 100mn ab tengu vs frigs as the pinnacle of elite pvp. If you are new to pvp flying a lot in cheap **** teaches you the most. There is always time to become a docked up bittervet forumwarrior who only pvps in 'pro' ships later.


Losing teaches a lot indeed... But after a while, the lesson will be "well a T1 fit rifter can't engage X and win". Meta goes a fair way to covering the difference but you start with a handicap that can't pull you out of a bad spot or turn a fight. I'm not advocating fitting hugely expensive faction mods or anything like that. I'm just saying that fitting a T2 frig for ~6m ISKs gives you better chance to actually learn and then apply what you learn.

Here's what T2 (or expensive high meta) fittings can get you:


  1. More DPS (T2 guns, damage mods)
  2. More Tank


Already giving you an edge in all-out brawling where it's a pure gank vs. tank equation.


  1. More range (scorch, barrage, null)
  2. More speed (T2 nano, OD, afterburner)
  3. More flexibility in range control (better webbing factor, 24km point, scram out to 9km)
  4. More effective ewar
  5. T2 drones (pretty much required for ships where drone is primary dps)


Why do without these benefits? Especially in FW where LPs are so easy to come by? It takes like 20 minutes to get the LPs for a firetail / slicer / comet running freaking dplex which you can do in an unfit frigate.

It's the same arguments as used by the no-rigs crowd. Even though dps or shield resists rigs are super cheap (~300k for a set of frig rigs) and invariably worth it.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#18 - 2013-01-03 19:10:03 UTC
Mich Farmer wrote:
Looking at your Corax fit, we see it's light missile fit. If you had a rocket fit, then condor could, in theory, kite you with light missiles but if you switched to javelin rockets he would have a hard time maintaining safe range and would probably eventually take enough hits to force him out.


you're assuming that t1 frig doesn't have links.

In todays meta of ultrafaggotry that isn't very likely

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#19 - 2013-01-06 16:42:50 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Mich Farmer wrote:
Looking at your Corax fit, we see it's light missile fit. If you had a rocket fit, then condor could, in theory, kite you with light missiles but if you switched to javelin rockets he would have a hard time maintaining safe range and would probably eventually take enough hits to force him out.


you're assuming that t1 frig doesn't have links.

In todays meta of ultrafaggotry that isn't very likely


it is not faggotry it is part of game, if you do not have link boosts you are doing something wrong.
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#20 - 2013-01-06 23:43:26 UTC
Indeed. Like paying for only one account. How dare you!
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