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Looking for Trade Apprenticeship
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Lesa Cromwell
#1 - 2012-12-30 12:25:41 UTC
Hi there,

The idea of making ISK through working the market has always interested me. It feels a lot more "real" than money-making in other games. New Eden's real, player-driven economy is a wonder, in that sense.

I've recently Power of 2'd this character into existence, and my "main" (main money-spender...!) has been around for nearly a year and a half now. As I've indicated in my little bracketed quip, this main doesn't do much in the way of making ISK. I hope that with this trade character, I might be able to change things.

However, my knowledge and experience of marketing is, I'm afraid, fairly limited. I'd like to think I'm not lacking in the potential to become a great trader, but I would much rather learn from somebody who's more experienced than just blindly stumble about.

So, that brings us to the purpose of this thread. I would like to take up an Apprenticeship, and this thread will serve as a medium for discussion with any and all potential masters. My initial capital is fairly limited, but it's enough for me to train plenty of skills; I've got all the Trade ones either training, injected, or sitting in my hangar. If joining a corp will be necessary for the facilitation of an apprenticeship, then I will be only too happy to oblige.


What will I get out of this?

- The knowledge and experience to become a successful trader
- An insight into the workings of EVE's market and how to effectively manipulate it
- A valued and trusted associate & future partner

What will you get out of this?

- A hard-working individual who is prepared to listen and learn
- Somebody who will quickly assimilate new knowledge and put it into practice
- A worker who can deal with some of the more tedious aspects of trading
(- An extra set of buy/sell orders!)


As I have already mentioned, my current finances are limited. I doubt that I would be able to pay a significant fee for an apprenticeship; however, as many of you are market-savvy, I'm sure we'll be able to come to a more sophisticated arrangement than "gimme ISK". Blink

Thank you for taking your time to read this. I hope we can get in touch soon,

~ LC
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#2 - 2012-12-30 14:10:45 UTC
How tedious can you handle? Knowing you are likely just looking for capital and/or market gems, there's trust to build first...

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Lesa Cromwell
#3 - 2012-12-30 15:09:17 UTC
As tedious as it needs to be for you to trust me. If that means hauling, then I'll be a delivery-truck!
Emma d'Acques
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-12-30 16:13:22 UTC
Lesa,

First of all, the best way to learn trading is diving in without fear of making mistakes.
Secondly, you WILL make mistakes, it's up to you to learn from those mistakes!

What experience, if any, do you currently have in trading?
If I may be so bold to ask: What do you mean by "limited capital"?

Here are a few pieces of advice:
- Buy low - Sell high (cliché, I know)
- Diversify your orders, don't put all of your eggs in one basket
- Watch out for Margin Trade scams
- Research!
- Don't be afraid to experiment, you just might get lucky
- Broker Relations!
- Have I said Research already?
- Evelopedia guides: There's quite a few good ones in there.

And last, but certainly not least, check out the MD section on a regular basis, some truly sage advice can be found with a bit of digging.

Other than that, good luck in your trading adventures!

I'm not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.
Lesa Cromwell
#5 - 2012-12-30 16:24:01 UTC
Emma d'Acques wrote:


What experience, if any, do you currently have in trading?
If I may be so bold to ask: What do you mean by "limited capital"?


I've not really done any trading at all, however I'm currently in conversation with somebody who is providing a great deal of help. (I won't say who it is, as they'd clearly prefer not to be known hence not posting in the thread.)

As for the second question, I'm decidedly poor, to put it shortly! Thank you for your advice.
Ymir Esubria
Brigandage
#6 - 2012-12-30 16:51:58 UTC
I'm far from a trading god, as I'm a recent starter myself, but I would gladly share some of my findings with you.
I'll contact you ingame today.

Psychotic Monk for CSM.

http://belligerentundesirables.wordpress.com/2013/03/04/psychotic-monk-for-csm/
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#7 - 2012-12-31 00:28:13 UTC
I don't need an apprentice, but I'm happy to help new people get started. I'm a little busy irl atm, but I'll give you a shout in a few days and help you get going.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
Hannah Flex
#8 - 2012-12-31 00:34:27 UTC
Emma d'Acques wrote:
- Research!


This cannot be stressed enough. While it may be possible to arbitrarily trade goods based purely upon numbers, understanding where something comes from: is it dropped by rats? Seeded by npc orders? Mission reward? Exploration drop? Produced? Manufactured? Mined? By whom and for who? For what is it used? Production? Research? Invention?

Knowing where your goods come from, who buys them and why they buy them is priceless knowledge.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#9 - 2012-12-31 06:28:24 UTC
Contact me ingame, il take you under my wings.

Send me an ingame mail with what times you play, your location and we can get started.
Umar Umarhabib
Doomheim
#10 - 2013-01-01 07:04:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Umar Umarhabib
Lesa Cromwell wrote:
Hi there,

The idea of making ISK through working the market has always interested me. It feels a lot more "real" than money-making in other games. New Eden's real, player-driven economy is a wonder, in that sense.

I've recently Power of 2'd this character into existence, and my "main" (main money-spender...!) has been around for nearly a year and a half now. As I've indicated in my little bracketed quip, this main doesn't do much in the way of making ISK. I hope that with this trade character, I might be able to change things.

However, my knowledge and experience of marketing is, I'm afraid, fairly limited. I'd like to think I'm not lacking in the potential to become a great trader, but I would much rather learn from somebody who's more experienced than just blindly stumble about.

So, that brings us to the purpose of this thread. I would like to take up an Apprenticeship, and this thread will serve as a medium for discussion with any and all potential masters. My initial capital is fairly limited, but it's enough for me to train plenty of skills; I've got all the Trade ones either training, injected, or sitting in my hangar. If joining a corp will be necessary for the facilitation of an apprenticeship, then I will be only too happy to oblige.


What will I get out of this?

- The knowledge and experience to become a successful trader
- An insight into the workings of EVE's market and how to effectively manipulate it
- A valued and trusted associate & future partner

What will you get out of this?

- A hard-working individual who is prepared to listen and learn
- Somebody who will quickly assimilate new knowledge and put it into practice
- A worker who can deal with some of the more tedious aspects of trading
(- An extra set of buy/sell orders!)


As I have already mentioned, my current finances are limited. I doubt that I would be able to pay a significant fee for an apprenticeship; however, as many of you are market-savvy, I'm sure we'll be able to come to a more sophisticated arrangement than "gimme ISK". Blink

Thank you for taking your time to read this. I hope we can get in touch soon,

~ LC


ROFL...apprenticeship?

To start off your trading, just train your Trade Skills to Tycoon IV, Broker Relations, Accounting (all Fee Reduction skills trained to V)

Then place regional buy orders for any module that has 200k or so profit, and sell them exactly where they are after you buy it.

Anything with a Regional daily volume of 80 or higher can be bought and sold with ease...exactly where you bought them.

The downside is, after a few months, you'll end up with an Asset list that's scattered throughout the region. But you'll have already made a few Billion by then, and this is a good way to start off your trading.

Or, you could also look at the Star Map, look at the statistic for "Average number of pilots docked" or whatever. Anything with a high number of people is a potential trading system. So you buy stuff from Jita, and then sell in that system.

You could also do both...

High-Sec systems right before you enter into low-sec are also good places to sell things (like fitted ships for a profit on Contracts, but make sure they are commonly used fitting, and it's not very close to a market hub)

Also Lowsec Cyno points, lowsec before 0.0, etc.
Lesa Cromwell
#11 - 2013-01-01 21:58:41 UTC
Umar Umarhabib wrote:


Then place regional buy orders for any module that has 200k or so profit, and sell them exactly where they are after you buy it.

Anything with a Regional daily volume of 80 or higher can be bought and sold with ease...exactly where you bought them.

The downside is, after a few months, you'll end up with an Asset list that's scattered throughout the region. But you'll have already made a few Billion by then, and this is a good way to start off your trading.


I often see people talking about billions as if they're nothing. For me, they're not. I've never even come close to having a billion ISK, either liquid or locked in assets. I don't see how buying a load of something then trying to sell it for more, in the exact same place, will get me anywhere. Why would somebody buy my more expensive goods over somebody else's? Why would somebody sell me products at a low enough price that I can make a profit, when they could do it themselves?
Emma d'Acques
Doomheim
#12 - 2013-01-01 23:16:40 UTC
Lesa,

Buying something for 100 ISK, and reselling it for 120 ISK at the exact same location is how many of us make ISK.

A lot of pilots are lazy, and dump their goods to buy orders (that's your 100 ISK order).
You, as a marketeer know this, and you decide to profit from the lazy pilots, so you put the item you bought for 100 ISK up for sale, but for the price of 120 ISK.

Along comes another lazy pilot, who just happens to be in need of the item you put up for sale.
As this second pilot is a lazy git/needs the item fast, he doesn't mind that he's paying 20% more, because he gets the item he wants.
Thanks to those 2 pilots, you just made 20 ISK in profit, by just buying and reselling at the same location.

Now, imagine that you keep following the same process, but for hundreds of items... and all thanks to lazy people.

I'm not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.
Lesa Cromwell
#13 - 2013-01-02 11:09:09 UTC
I can't imagine that working in places where people can get the item cheaper, though. Say a trade hub, where your sell order isn't going to be filled unless you price it down to equal/below the price you bought it for.

Would you instead set up orders at mission hubs/the like?
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#14 - 2013-01-02 11:25:48 UTC
Emma d'Acques wrote:
Lesa,

Buying something for 100 ISK, and reselling it for 120 ISK at the exact same location is how many of us make ISK.

A lot of pilots are lazy, and dump their goods to buy orders (that's your 100 ISK order).
You, as a marketeer know this, and you decide to profit from the lazy pilots, so you put the item you bought for 100 ISK up for sale, but for the price of 120 ISK.

Along comes another lazy pilot, who just happens to be in need of the item you put up for sale.
As this second pilot is a lazy git/needs the item fast, he doesn't mind that he's paying 20% more, because he gets the item he wants.
Thanks to those 2 pilots, you just made 20 ISK in profit, by just buying and reselling at the same location.

Now, imagine that you keep following the same process, but for hundreds of items... and all thanks to lazy people.



You need higher turnover when working with less capital, and the scenario Umar described isn't going to give her high enough turnover to keep the money moving. With the exception of trade hubs, that's a few bil from now... why am I explaining this?

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Emma d'Acques
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-01-02 11:46:51 UTC
@Tul Breetai: I was answering specifically on the question in quote, and tried to formulate it as simple as I could, as that is station trading in a nutshell.

Lesa Cromwell wrote:

I don't see how buying a load of something then trying to sell it for more, in the exact same place, will get me anywhere.


I'm not totally useless, I can be used as a bad example.
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#16 - 2013-01-02 12:31:28 UTC
Not that a stated rookie trader needs you to be more specific, of course.

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-01-02 14:15:18 UTC
Lesa Cromwell wrote:
I can't imagine that working in places where people can get the item cheaper, though. Say a trade hub, where your sell order isn't going to be filled unless you price it down to equal/below the price you bought it for.

Would you instead set up orders at mission hubs/the like?


You will be surprised how lazy, stupid or ignorant many players are when it comes to the value of items. This is how you make isk. Not everyone uses external websites / programs to find the value of an item, or do not want to haul something(s) 5 - 20 jumps for a small savings. Convince is a great motivator for people to spend 10% more on items or to lose 20% value on an item.

Take your average 1 - 15 day old player. Their going to be running level 1 - 3 missions getting salvage and mod drops. But their not going to have the skills to sell the items, haul them around, research using their materials, reprocessing them and so on. They also have no idea what their values are and just base it on their regions prices. People will buy or sell items that just 1 - 2 jumps away can be huge price differences.
Yvormessier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-01-02 15:29:43 UTC
Lesa Cromwell wrote:
I can't imagine that working in places where people can get the item cheaper, though. Say a trade hub, where your sell order isn't going to be filled unless you price it down to equal/below the price you bought it for.

Would you instead set up orders at mission hubs/the like?


I started with 5k about 6 weeks ago and I'm currently worth 2b+ I did it by doing exactly what other posters are advising you to.
Set up regional buy orders then sell the inventory thus acquired remotely using the marketing skill to set up sell orders. You never even have to undock if you don't want to. Which station you trade from is irrelevant since you will be trading throughout the entire region.

Once you have a clear understanding of the buy order/sell order mechanic trading becomes trivially simple.

Raising your standings with the owner of the station you trade from will reduce fees so it is a good idea to run missions both to raise capital to trade with and to raise standings to reduce fees.
Cooyaw
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-01-09 04:33:33 UTC
I'm available as well to help.

I like to think that part of learning what pilots buy what where and for what purpose is getting out there in low sec and null sec and high sec and actually doing the things pilots do there.

That was possible for me because of loans from friend that were day one eve players so I guess not applicable to everyone.

I agree knowing these things is very important. I'm sure we could teach you a lot but a lot of it comes from experience too. You need to make mistakes.

My most memorable mistake trading was a brilliant yet risky tactic another trader pulled on me. I forget what item it was but me and this pilot were obviously in an update your order war on this module...thing is I already lucked out and someone offloaded like 500 or so on me but I was ready to close the order and the product was moving fast....so what did this pullout do?

As a noob trader this will probably blow your mind like it did mine...my first market pvp

He put up an order to buy these modules at jita price plus like 2 or 3 percent..I saw this and immediately sold...what I did NOT see was that the minimum quantity was 5000....

So basically this trader spent around 30 million isk on a gamble or hunch that I was a noob trader and got all 500 of my whatevers and still made a profit.

His other buy order was directly underneath his max quantity one.

These are the kind mistakes that taught me things.

Anyways I'm happy to share my experiences and successes because I don't believe that there isn't enough isk to go around there is tons. All thanks to lazy as pilots:)