Intergalactic Summit

May I ask what you are refering to with that "dictatorship of relativism" ? I admit that I have difficulties to understand the premise of your message.

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. (something Manwe Todako once sent me in an evemail)

There is that sticky problem of slavery that clouds the very compelling and good aspects of the "faith" to which you refer. Perhaps it is the "faithful" who have yet to come fully into the light so that their deeds may be fully exposed and that which is not of God expunged from their lives. Judgement must begin with the faithful before any "faith" has cedibility among those outside. Does not the Love of God give us the freedom, even to the religious, to say: "We were wrong."?

~Listens to the words, then listens to them again.~

Msr. Stitcher. Not that I think you will care what a Gallentean thinks, but my opinion of you just changed.

Religion keeps the masses happy, keeps them from revolting. Keeps the poor from killing the rich.

Hence it's a great tool to the state.

Cpt. Hakatain,

I read your response to the meditation of my fellow Praetorian with great interest. One of the points that struck me is how you understand the term "faith":


The way you picture faith is that it is something small and petty, something man seeks refuge to if he fears to use his powers of reason and intellect,when he is afraid of the world or unwilling to adapt to it. The faith you speak of means that we believe something unconditionally for no particular reason, that it is substituting emotion for reason.

While for many 'faithful' men that which you describe is not so far from truth, I think you are amiss here, in the sense that you are missing that even for those succumbing to that which you describe so eloquently, there is more to it and that this 'more to it' is the really important thing.

If I speak of Faith, I'm referring to something entirely different that you. Faith isn't believing contrary to evidence. Rather Faith arises out of our doubts, doubts are a necessary precondition to Faith and not casting our doubts aside is fundamental to keeping true to Faith. Quite naturally, Faith is more than just doubt. But it is the doubt-laden relationship we as humans experience to have with the divine a relationship one experiences to be a necessary one, that precludes any attempts at escape. Given the doubt-laden nature of this relationship it's not averse to rational reflection, but honest Faith invites such reflection, even though it's being well aware that human rationality is bounded.

That said, I'd venture the claim that even you, Cpt. Hakatain, experience this necessity, in a way. The melancholy you describe, the lack, is in my opinion not really to be explained with you feeling a lack in the fact that you don't believe contrary to evidence or in the absence of good reason. I'm quite sure you don't miss the type of faith you describe. Still, I'd suggest, you experience your relation to the divine and you feel that you lack any substantial relationship with the transcendent and divine.

Thus I come to remark on your idea that religion is possible without faith. Yes, it is: If one takes faith to be what you take it to be, you are quite right. But a religion that doesn't allow for Faith - in the sense I have described - is like a tea-cup that is precluded from ever being filled with tea: It's void of its true function and will remain an empty thing. So, while I think if you strip the Amarrian religion from 'faith' in any way or shape will leave a philosophical and moral framework to be quite proud of, I'd add that this would be in some sense 'anemic' indeed. It would be anemic because the true function of religion is to give us a way to represent and celebrate that oftentimes difficult and doubt-laden, but also equally joy-filled and exalting relationship we share with the divine. The divine of which the Amarrian religion reminds us – in what is probably it's greatest service to mankind – that it is the single, uncreated, sovereign source of being.

Faithfully,
N. Mithra

Ahh, thank you. For a moment I was afraid that my own relativism was going to pose a problem, but apparently not.

Stating that Faith and beliefs are eventually something personal based out of sincerity with oneself, battling self deception and irrationality, and finally rejoining Ms Mithra analysis, does that sound agreeable to you ?

When man reduces himself to thinking only of material objects or those that can be proven, he closes himself to the great questions about life and himself.

However, the modern development of the sciences brings innumerable positive effects, as we all see, that should always be recognized. At the same time, it is necessary to admit that the tendency to consider true only what can be experienced constitutes a limitation of human reason and produces a terrible schizophrenia now acclaimed, which has led to the coexistence of rationalism, materialism, and unbridled instinct.

Yet the positive results achieved must not obscure the fact that reason, in its one-sided concern to investigate human subjectivity, seems to have forgotten that men and women are always called to direct their steps towards a truth which transcends them. Sundered from that truth, individuals are at the mercy of caprice, and their state as person ends up being judged by pragmatic criteria based essentially upon experimental data, in the mistaken belief that technology must dominate all. It has happened therefore that reason, rather than voicing the human orientation towards truth, has wilted under the weight of knowledge and lost the capacity to lift its gaze to the heights, not daring to rise to the truth of being.

Faith is entirely based on conviction. Although conviction is an admirable trait, it cannot be more important than rationality.

Here in the Gallente Federation we have many religions, some unique to a single planet while others have spread themselves to our entire territory. However the Federation itself is a secular state, this ensures people of all beliefs (or lack thereof) are treated equally and fairly. This would not happen in a religious state where people are forced to obey a certain religion, even the laws of that state would have to be in agreement of the same faith.

I'm not a religious person as I am an agnostic. Perhaps you can say knowledge and reason are my 'religion'.

In the history of the human race religion can be dangerous at the wrong hands and when out of control has brought much ruin and suffering to New Eden in comparison to the little good it has caused. I'm not even going to name examples. Although I dislike religion, as an open minded human being I still believe people still have the right of worship, as long their religion doesn't interfere with the freedom or well being of others. The problem is not with religion on a base level but rather when people start to mix religion with all elements of society.

That's the melting point.

That unfortunately is only a few steps away from reason and is a line many people are manipulated or manipulate others to cross. It's the sad truth.

If your opinion was to consider me the sort of person for whom an accident of genetics and birthplace, or a mere difference of ideology, would make me uncaring of your opinion, then I'm frankly glad you're revising your estimate. I strive to treat people and their opinions on merit.

I assume the revision is a positive one?




The correct response to a doubt is neither to cast it aside nor to ignore it, nor to use it to fuel your faith, view it as a test to overcome, or whatever else it may be you're trying to say we should do with them.

Doubt is an alarm bell: It's the jolt our common sense gives us when it detects a discrepancy between what we perceive and what we believe. Either our belief or our perception can be wrong, and the approach I take is to confront that discrepancy and attempt to resolve it. Either my belief or perception could be wrong, so the thing to do is to examine the doubt from all angles, and expand my understanding of the subject it involves until it is as complete as it can be.

Sometimes, I find that my belief was correct in the first place. Sometimes, I find that I need to revise or abandon my belief in the face of new evidence.

You're quite right that faith arises from your doubts - Faith is the act of always concluding that your belief is correct, no matter the doubt or evidence against it. Faith IS that process, by the very definition, no matter how much you may protest otherwise, no matter what.... nebulous wordplay you may conjure up to try and paint it in a positive light, the dictionary definition of the word "Faith" is:



Emphasis added. You don't get to invent your own definition- that's what the word MEANS.

If you practiced that preach? If your doubts honestly did inspire you to solemnly reflect and reconsider your beliefs? Then you'd be an atheist.

Oh, and THIS:



...Is raw, stinking fedo sewage. Human senses are bounded. Rationality is the process we have invented for the express purpose of describing and understanding those things that fall outside of our narrow spectra of perception and intuition. It is by definition the means by which we escape and transcend our normal bounds. If human rationality happened to agree with your faith and had led us to conclude that Amarr has got it completely right, then you'd be loudly singing its praises as a divine gift.

It has not, and thus you and billions of other like you throughout history have petulantly attempted to discredit it. Instead you loftily proclaim that a rag-tag collection of rambling and often quite insane texts got it right where the process that gave us the warp drive, cloning, and the very FTL quantum fluid router comms I'm using to have this conversation with you is "bounded", "incomplete", "flawed" and "human". "It is not divine" you say "therefore it is imperfect."

Now, regarding this whole "Faith has created the largest civilized empire around." thing... The existence and success of the Amarr Empire does indeed tell the story of how useful Faith can be in uniting and inspiring people to work towards a common goal. And I'm not going to argue with that, if your objective is to create a large, unified and influential organisation, Faith is absolutely one of the possible tools that can be used to keep the constituent members of that organisation in line.

There are alternative methods, but Faith is undoubtedly about the easiest means. I'm arguing that our species has developed to the point where alternative methods are now valid. We're an advanced, interstellar civilization now, but we're still using primitive bronze-and-wood means of social indoctrination.

Nowadays, I think we've laid the groundwork for an alternative - for educated, reasonable loyalty to an ideal you agree with on a conscious and rational level, rather than accept on faith. I am absolutely, to this day, 100% dedicated to my people, to Ishukone and to the State, but that dedication now stems from my evaluation of the value of our culture and my understanding of the worth of those things. Sure, I used to take the value of Ishukone on faith, when I was a Watchman, but that's changed now. That was in another lifetime, may as well have been another man.

Faith may be effective, but it's still the most primitive means of social control. A flint knife may cut the meat just fine, but against somebody in a modern combat dropsuit with a Nova blade? The march of technology and our understanding of the universe, our tools for evaluating and understanding our reality, all of that has furnished us with an opportunity to move onto a much, MUCH stronger platform for patriotism, loyalty and fidelity.

It's a step that so far, none of the cultures I've seen have yet undertaken.