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When 1 faction wins over the other , question

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Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2012-12-29 02:15:19 UTC
I really hope CCP / CSM actually read some of these posts AttentionUgh

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Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#82 - 2012-12-30 11:47:33 UTC
Gunship wrote:
I really hope CCP / CSM actually read some of these posts AttentionUgh


Can't speak for the others, but I sure do. The day when the trolls stop caring enough to hang out in W&T and declare that "FW is dead" year after year, month after month, in the face of all progress, is the day I might begin to believe them Lol

Until than, the popcorn show of "you people" and "so-and-so's cheating" and "CCP favors the _________ faction" never gets old. FW wouldn't be the same without the bitter blood feuds and endless propaganda wars.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Dan Carter Murray
#83 - 2012-12-30 11:50:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Dan Carter Murray
Zoe Panala wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Here is what happens:

The losers trim the fat. Complainers. Defeatists. People who refuse to fly 'x' ship or get in a plex at all. They head for the door. Those that are left are committed to winning and are open to new ideas and teamwork. The remnants get more organized and that organization in turn attracts new blood.

The winners struggle to keep it together. Individual pilots who want 'gudfights' may defect for the opposition. People get bored and log in less frequently. An influx of farmers garners resentment. Internal wardecs poisons the militia. Whole corps or even alliances might quit to greener pastures.


It's easy to make such comments and ignore the facts. You can always say yeah its gonna happen "soon." But do you mind if I ask how long this process is supposed to take? Or will you never admit that the system is simply bad?

Under the current mechanics people who want to do the play the sov warfare thing in faction war have 2 choices:

1) plex for more money
or
2) plex for less money

It seems to me that people convincingly chosen option 1 since may 22nd.

So when are we going to see amarr with 50 systems and Minmatar with only 20?

-Cearain's alt




You still have more forum posts than VPs.

- DCM's alt


Also has more posts than login hours.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#84 - 2012-12-30 12:04:58 UTC
Thomas Gore wrote:
I think CCP under-estimates the boredom-suffering skills of its playerbase.


And I think you underestimate the exploit-solving skills of its playerbase.

As much as we can dream that PvP would be the ultimate income stream in FW, the bottom line is there are limits to how high a kill payout can reasonably go without causing problems, and even at those maximums it will never be enough revenue to satisfy those that participate primarily in gang or fleet warfare. Solo PvP-ers on the other hand have reported much more satisfying payouts from their kills, enough to sustain regular losses if one is skilled enough.

We could arbitrarily scale all the PvE-related payouts back so they are less than the PvP payouts, but at that point the rewards are so low we might as well have not implemented them in the first place. Many of us remember FW back when there was no reward or consequence for plexing, and how many fights one could find in a plex. I'm not hearing a lot of "lets go back to the old days" except from the trolling subset which has never really changed their message with regards to current warzone reality.

I'm just not one of those that believe in shaping the game design to fit arbitrary "PvP, not PvE" memes if the result would harm the increased activity levels we've all been enjoying in recent months. Having an abundance of PvP as well as a reliable income stream is much more important than having the income stream come from the PvP directly.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Juliade
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2012-12-31 15:59:06 UTC
I think a lot of people are missing something here. SQUID-LP is a different currency than FEDEF-LP. While 600k FEDEF-LP sounds like a lot, we are currently suffering from inflation. So many people get so much LP and try to get ISK from it that the market is flooded with federation stuff. For those that don't know how supply and demand work, it means that while we get a lot of FEDEF-LP, it's actually worth so little in terms of ISK/LP that it kinda balances out. The little SQUID-LP you get is far more worth than the millions of FEDEF-LP we get.

Using Navy Domis as a benchmark (also it's the safest bet to get money), I'd invest about 115M ISK to get stuff in order to sell the navy domi for 250M. This turns out to have a return value of 135M ISK for 150k LP. So those 600k FEDEF-LP are actually worth only barely over half a billion. It wasn't 3 months ago that I could sell navy domis for 500M a piece. This means that the value of FEDEF-LP has effectively dropped from 3.333 ISK/LP to 900 ISK/LP. The days of easy ISK are over and it will only get worse once we hit T5.

As an alternative (to show I have done my homework), selling faction cap boosters pretty much has the best ISK/LP return. I can get 1B ISK out of 200k LP (or 5.000 ISK/LP). However, I'd have to sell 40k cap boosters which is simply not happening because the demand for that many faction cap boosters simply isn't there!

Just food for thought when considering the "almighty resources gallente must have by now".
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-12-31 16:49:09 UTC
Last I checked, Federation Navy Antimatter was cheaper than Caldari Navy Antimatter in Jita. Times are changing.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#87 - 2013-01-01 04:05:14 UTC
Man can I get back the time I spent reading all this crap.....again!

Seriously you lot need to get out and just shoot summit.

I left FW on an old toon becasue there wasn't any 'meaning' to it. Now i'm back in Amarr FW and have no plans to leave.

FW is definately better than it was prior. (The bitter vets that disagree can't adapt to the times and probably should just go play something else for a while till you miss the stuff that eve has over other games)

Now I can pvp to my hearts content and still earn enough LP (yes even at teir 1 and the -50% gearing) to fund my pvp. I sometimes spend hours just orbitng the button and other time I can't do it for more than 10 mins before leroying into whatever target i find cos i'm so bored.

Guys (and gals) just undock and go make FW what you want from it, stop yer whinging and go do it FFS





:end of rant:

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Corelyn
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#88 - 2013-01-02 14:37:01 UTC
Good read this was. Now, back to steamrolling the Minmatar systems.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#89 - 2013-01-03 03:14:07 UTC
The factions have been at war for centuries.. I doubt the conflict ending is a real worry..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Antares 04
Doomheim
#90 - 2013-01-03 06:41:06 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
The factions have been at war for centuries.. I doubt the conflict ending is a real worry..


Incorrect, the Federation and Proto-State was at war for 100 years, then had peace for 100 other years, the Amarrian Empire had a conflict with the rebelling Minmatar that lasted for a few decades from out-break to resolution, at most. Then they too had 100 years of peace. This current war has been going for... what, 5 years? That's half a decade, in that case.

Still, as you say, it's not likely to end in a loooong time yet. More than enough time to fight each other for years more.
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#91 - 2013-01-03 07:33:12 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
Man can I get back the time I spent reading all this crap.....again!

Seriously you lot need to get out and just shoot summit.

I left FW on an old toon becasue there wasn't any 'meaning' to it. Now i'm back in Amarr FW and have no plans to leave.

FW is definately better than it was prior. (The bitter vets that disagree can't adapt to the times and probably should just go play something else for a while till you miss the stuff that eve has over other games)

Now I can pvp to my hearts content and still earn enough LP (yes even at teir 1 and the -50% gearing) to fund my pvp. I sometimes spend hours just orbitng the button and other time I can't do it for more than 10 mins before leroying into whatever target i find cos i'm so bored.

Guys (and gals) just undock and go make FW what you want from it, stop yer whinging and go do it FFS





:end of rant:


I support Leeroying obviously unwise targets just because :)
Cat Casidy
Percussive Diplomacy
Sedition.
#92 - 2013-01-03 10:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Casidy
[/quote]

A) I did play when it was worse, I joined as a Nulli Pilot, and then swapped to mintar for the isk (was making 300-350m easy) but that got boring really quick so went back to Amarr after a short EVE break to get gfs

B)I am not worried about how much isk someone can make, but the poster I was replaying to was asking if someone could really make 150k+ LP an hour and make that much isk. I was just showing him the math that its really easy

C) You are right about Amarr Militia being able to do much better than we are now........ so many FW corps and alliances that think very differently, and lots of egos. Though Minnies have that too... there is an active war between two of your alliances in FW :-P

D) As long as we can hold T2 (almost doubtful once gal start plexing in amarr space) the isk is fine to fly faction fitted DD and welp them......I run 2 sets of missions a week, thats half a bill easy. Rest of my time is just that, welping DDs but damn, its the most fun ive had in EVE in a long time!

See you on the field
Tsobai
[/quote]

I'm pretty shure we never mentioned plexing, its gotten boring over here and we need more things to shoot at, you guys seem to have your stuff together. Can't wait.
Cat

-edit- drunk post and I'm not going to fix it.

.
Ohishi
Apocalypse Reign
#93 - 2013-01-03 10:35:10 UTC
Shaalira D'arc wrote:
Last I checked, Federation Navy Antimatter was cheaper than Caldari Navy Antimatter in Jita. Times are changing.

It's always been cheaper and honestly the only reason I have ever used CNAM was because of the lack of FNAM on market.

Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Seek what they sought.

Gunship
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2013-01-03 11:43:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunship
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Thomas Gore wrote:
I think CCP under-estimates the boredom-suffering skills of its playerbase.


And I think you underestimate the exploit-solving skills of its playerbase.

As much as we can dream that PvP would be the ultimate income stream in FW, the bottom line is there are limits to how high a kill payout can reasonably go without causing problems, and even at those maximums it will never be enough revenue to satisfy those that participate primarily in gang or fleet warfare. Solo PvP-ers on the other hand have reported much more satisfying payouts from their kills, enough to sustain regular losses if one is skilled enough.

We could arbitrarily scale all the PvE-related payouts back so they are less than the PvP payouts, but at that point the rewards are so low we might as well have not implemented them in the first place. Many of us remember FW back when there was no reward or consequence for plexing, and how many fights one could find in a plex. I'm not hearing a lot of "lets go back to the old days" except from the trolling subset which has never really changed their message with regards to current warzone reality.

I'm just not one of those that believe in shaping the game design to fit arbitrary "PvP, not PvE" memes if the result would harm the increased activity levels we've all been enjoying in recent months. Having an abundance of PvP as well as a reliable income stream is much more important than having the income stream come from the PvP directly.


That does make a lot of sense, thanks for that info. From where the game is right now I think what needs to be looked at is can the "pvp" payout be set a little higher "without it being mass exploited in the wrong way" and can you please address the T1 issue. I think when a fraction reaches T1 it almost dies. Suggest T1 becomes the standard payout and each level above gets 33% bonus points (std, 33%, 66%, 100%, 133%). This still gives the attacker a bonus while allowing the defender to stay in fraction ships.

Would it be possible to share the calculations behind how the LP is calculated for a PvP kill?

Thanks

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Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#95 - 2013-01-03 11:55:35 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Thomas Gore wrote:
I think CCP under-estimates the boredom-suffering skills of its playerbase.


And I think you underestimate the exploit-solving skills of its playerbase.

As much as we can dream that PvP would be the ultimate income stream in FW, the bottom line is there are limits to how high a kill payout can reasonably go without causing problems, and even at those maximums it will never be enough revenue to satisfy those that participate primarily in gang or fleet warfare. Solo PvP-ers on the other hand have reported much more satisfying payouts from their kills, enough to sustain regular losses if one is skilled enough.

We could arbitrarily scale all the PvE-related payouts back so they are less than the PvP payouts, but at that point the rewards are so low we might as well have not implemented them in the first place. Many of us remember FW back when there was no reward or consequence for plexing, and how many fights one could find in a plex. I'm not hearing a lot of "lets go back to the old days" except from the trolling subset which has never really changed their message with regards to current warzone reality.

I'm just not one of those that believe in shaping the game design to fit arbitrary "PvP, not PvE" memes if the result would harm the increased activity levels we've all been enjoying in recent months. Having an abundance of PvP as well as a reliable income stream is much more important than having the income stream come from the PvP directly.


I guess you're right. But at the same time, my statement still holds true. There are tons of players in FW currently that don't want any part in PvP whatsoever and are there to just orbit the button for rewards.

Can't be right like this either.
Zoe Panala
Blobcats
#96 - 2013-01-03 17:38:44 UTC
Thomas Gore wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Thomas Gore wrote:
I think CCP under-estimates the boredom-suffering skills of its playerbase.


And I think you underestimate the exploit-solving skills of its playerbase.

As much as we can dream that PvP would be the ultimate income stream in FW, the bottom line is there are limits to how high a kill payout can reasonably go without causing problems, and even at those maximums it will never be enough revenue to satisfy those that participate primarily in gang or fleet warfare. Solo PvP-ers on the other hand have reported much more satisfying payouts from their kills, enough to sustain regular losses if one is skilled enough.

We could arbitrarily scale all the PvE-related payouts back so they are less than the PvP payouts, but at that point the rewards are so low we might as well have not implemented them in the first place. Many of us remember FW back when there was no reward or consequence for plexing, and how many fights one could find in a plex. I'm not hearing a lot of "lets go back to the old days" except from the trolling subset which has never really changed their message with regards to current warzone reality.

I'm just not one of those that believe in shaping the game design to fit arbitrary "PvP, not PvE" memes if the result would harm the increased activity levels we've all been enjoying in recent months. Having an abundance of PvP as well as a reliable income stream is much more important than having the income stream come from the PvP directly.


I guess you're right. But at the same time, my statement still holds true. There are tons of players in FW currently that don't want any part in PvP whatsoever and are there to just orbit the button for rewards.

Can't be right like this either.


And much, much more who think pvp is all about running away until you have at least 4 to 1 odds. If you are looking for the cancer that is killing FW, look at Hans and his mates for example.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#97 - 2013-01-10 22:06:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ground ctrl
Dan Carter Murray wrote:
Zoe Panala wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Here is what happens:

The losers trim the fat. Complainers. Defeatists. People who refuse to fly 'x' ship or get in a plex at all. They head for the door. Those that are left are committed to winning and are open to new ideas and teamwork. The remnants get more organized and that organization in turn attracts new blood.

The winners struggle to keep it together. Individual pilots who want 'gudfights' may defect for the opposition. People get bored and log in less frequently. An influx of farmers garners resentment. Internal wardecs poisons the militia. Whole corps or even alliances might quit to greener pastures.


It's easy to make such comments and ignore the facts. You can always say yeah its gonna happen "soon." But do you mind if I ask how long this process is supposed to take? Or will you never admit that the system is simply bad?

Under the current mechanics people who want to do the play the sov warfare thing in faction war have 2 choices:

1) plex for more money
or
2) plex for less money

It seems to me that people convincingly chosen option 1 since may 22nd.

So when are we going to see amarr with 50 systems and Minmatar with only 20?

-Cearain's alt




You still have more forum posts than VPs.

- DCM's alt


Also has more posts than login hours.



FW occupancy is a horrible mechanic. I spent about 20 hours playing it after the latest changes and who knows how many hours before that. That was enough time for me to tell that winning the occupancy war has no merit.

If others think the fw occupancy game is somehow interesting/exciting gameplay that merits their spending hundreds of hours of their lives, thats their choice. We can just disagree. It certainly could have been something like that, but ccp decided to stick with the hide and plex mechanics that haven't changed substantially since fws creation. They just threw a bunch of isk at it saw a wave of people come in for the isk and called it a success. I see hans is also openly dropping his view that fw should be pvp centered when he says things like this:

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

I'm just not one of those that believe in shaping the game design to fit arbitrary "PvP, not PvE" memes if the result would harm the increased activity levels we've all been enjoying in recent months.


Such a change from the platform he ran on.

I see there are now more gallente and minmatar than caldari. Anyone who denies what I posted above is just ignoring the actual data.

Also I am still wondering if Zarnak would kindly answer when he thinks this change will take place. In may it will be 1 year since the financial incentives lead to minmatar dominance of the war zone. Do you think this change, you predict ,will take longer than a year? Will it take 2 years, a decade? I am just curious if you will ever concede that the fact that the system being economicaly lopsided is a problem?
Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2013-01-11 07:55:03 UTC
Ohishi wrote:
Shaalira D'arc wrote:
Last I checked, Federation Navy Antimatter was cheaper than Caldari Navy Antimatter in Jita. Times are changing.

It's always been cheaper and honestly the only reason I have ever used CNAM was because of the lack of FNAM on market.


It's not always been cheaper. The opposite's usually true.

Check the year-long market history of Navy Antimatter in Jita, and that's just the last year.

ground crl wrote:
I see there are now more gallente and minmatar than caldari. Anyone who denies what I posted above is just ignoring the actual data.


Current FW stats haven't updated to reflect the fact that Ev0ke just joined the Caldari militia, bringing roughly 750 more pilots into the ranks of the squids.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#99 - 2013-01-11 14:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ground ctrl
Shaalira D'arc wrote:
Ohishi wrote:
Shaalira D'arc wrote:
Last I checked, Federation Navy Antimatter was cheaper than Caldari Navy Antimatter in Jita. Times are changing.

It's always been cheaper and honestly the only reason I have ever used CNAM was because of the lack of FNAM on market.


It's not always been cheaper. The opposite's usually true.

Check the year-long market history of Navy Antimatter in Jita, and that's just the last year.

ground crl wrote:
I see there are now more gallente and minmatar than caldari. Anyone who denies what I posted above is just ignoring the actual data.


Current FW stats haven't updated to reflect the fact that Ev0ke just joined the Caldari militia, bringing roughly 750 more pilots into the ranks of the squids.



Caldari has traditionally had a much larger militia than any other. Theories can vary but I think it was in part just for the simple fact that most characters created in eve are caldari.

I am not aware of a graph but I would think if we look at one we would see that after economic incentives were put into place Minmatar numbers rose relative to the amarr around the time of inferno and after, since they started out with a dominant map and could reap huge economic gains.

The Gallente and caldari gains were probably somewhat consistent until this last patch in october when the Gallentes temporary lead (at least in the original inferno mechanics the leads of the gallente and caldari tended to be only temporary) was made more permanent by the october 22nd changes. At that point Gallente probably picking up players at a faster rate than caldari.

But anyway thats what I would predict. But it would be interesting to see this data. I would love to see a graph from say may 2011 to today graphing how many pilots each side had.

Edit: its also interesting that the changes made on October 22nd were supposed to make it so one faction did not need to wait for some null sec alliance to come and bail them out. Yet there has likely never been a situation where that is so clearly the case. Amarr were well on the way to at least a tier 4 cashout before nulli came. Caldari right now seem stuck at tier 1 pretty much permantently - absent a large null sec alliance coming in that is - hello evoke.

I wonder if there will ever be any acknowledgement that the october 22nd changes (specifically 1. giving lp for defensive plexing, 2. changing lp advantages from cheaper prices to more lp, and 3. generally making the war more drawn out by decreasing the bleed rate in systems) didn't work as intended and actually made it worse?