EVE General Discussion

You can't. The cost and risk of high sec industry are oth so low nothing better can really be made in null. Even if you provided an infinity of production lines with no cost to setup and run it would not be enough. Thats why you basicly have to whack high sec on the head at least a little to make null industry slighly competitive because of the added risk cost.

"Obama voice"

Yes we can!!!

How much more lucrative? Double. Half. Quarter. What is it exactly that you want?

I don't think there is an easy answer. If there was an easy answer CCP would have already done it.

While I think there should be bonuses for research and production in space below -0.0 I personally feel that the need is more to get people away from NPC facilities everywhere than there is a need to destroy Hi-sec just to make Null feel better about its self.

It is after all Hi-secs largest trading partner and if you remove that market you will be damaging Hi-sec considerably without completely trashing its abilities as well.

This discussion needs to be based on EvE as a whole not just the selfishness of one group or another

and how would it make 0 sec better? that ypu can swarm the market with your cheaper stuff? yes. then no highsecindustrialist will build anything as the margin is already so thin... you have the moonmaterials, you have the topminingstuff you have the capitalindustry you have exclusive ships and modules and now you want to take ower the whole industry too. and the highseccers are the selfish,,,

No, I'm not. I'm not going to state outright that you're being deliberately obtuse, but you clearly are not understanding, one way or another.

What I'm saying is that there are already areas of space where a nullsec midpoint is necessary to reach empire, even with what you claim are "excessively long" jump ranges. These midpoints would most often come in the form of a cyno beacon on a POS. As this system would be necessarily disconnected from their space, maintaining any sort of index in it would be difficult, and would therefore impose an additional burden on an alliance with already extremely vulnerable supply lines.

Their alternative, of course, is to make nice with the local powerbloc, so that they can use friendly stations that are located closer to empire instead. This has several advantages - they no longer have to pay the extremely high bill for their isolated midpoint system, stations are far safer to cyno onto than a POS, and they split the burden of defending their supply lines with their allies.

What you're proposing with nerfing jump ranges will only exacerbate that problem. Even more areas of space will require these vulnerable midpoints. The areas closest to empire will become prime real estate, held by those larger alliances or powerblocs. Space deeper into nullsec, sure, those smaller groups can fight over it, but they'll find their access to empire cut off at the whims of the larger groups in the border zones. So bluing up with one of those larger groups to guarantee access becomes important.

So much for the idea that it'd let smaller groups compete more easily, eh?



I'd like to address your claim that the "industry re-work won't matter without jump range nerfs", too. It's pretty much full of it. The problem with production in nullsec in general is a matter of volume movement.

Take the current scenario if I want to build in nullsec in any reasonable quantity. The lack of meaningful local low end supplies means I import my minerals. Importing minerals means I freighter them from Jita to a suitable build point, build a ton of 425mm railguns, and jump freighter them to nullsec. Once in nullsec, I refine them, and then (unless i'm lucky enough to have access to a conquerable station, whose facilities are slightly less bad), I freighter them to my build point, a task which is considerably riskier than the same in nullsec. Finally, once building is complete, there may be a third step in there, where I have to then freighter my goods to the sale station.

Lets apply numbers to that? If I pack cleverly, I can get about 65 maelstrom worth of compressed minerals into two jump freighter trips. Moving those minerals takes ten freighter trips in empire, and another ten in nullsec. If I have to move to a sale station in nullsec, it's another four trips there.

On the other hand, I could just make ten jump freighter trips to move 65 finished maelstrom straight to the sale station. Sounds a heck of a lot more attractive, doesn't it? I can make a minimum of twenty freighter jumps (half of them being through a nullsec gate or jump bridge) plus two jump freighter trips, or I can make ten jump freighter trips, which in my area of space is twenty jumps. Talk about a no-brainer. Nerf my jump range by half and double the number of jumps? Importing the finished hulls is still pretty much a no-brainer, really.

On the other hand, perhaps the dreams of fantastic nullsec production come true. Miners mine, and refine the ore in a station, and sell me the minerals. In that same station, I build my battleships, and hey, it's even my hub, so I sell them right there! Now if it's that easy, why the hell would I spend the time and fuel to jump them from Empire? There are certainly reasons. Perhaps I'm at war and my miners have scattered, perhaps I welped a fleet and need them now, perhaps the revamps don't go over as well as hoped and local production doesn't cut it. But, on the surface of it, just building locally becomes a heck of a lot more attractive.

Volume movement. It matters. Make it more attractive to build locally than to import, and we'll do it that way. I suppose that nerfing jump range is a lazy way of doing it, but it is by no means necessary, and will have unintended effects as I outlined above.

Please explain to me how nerfing jump ranges would not have the effects I stated, specifically in regards to encouraging coalitions.

Allow me to provide some illustrations, if it helps.

Imagine you're a small alliance living in Period Basis, with your capital in TPAR-G. We'll pretend you can produce everything Tech 1 you need locally, but the nature of Tech II production means that importation from highsec remains mandatory for your HACs, T2 guns, etc. Your JF pilots have maxed nav skills, so they open up the map and see what it takes to get from Keberz to TPAR-G (or TPAR-G to Nourbal on an outbound leg).

At least with my mapping tool, the default route goes through F-NXLQ and W-IX39, both in Querious. Three jumps total. Maybe you'd prefer to hit Delve NPC space instead, since you mentioned NPC space as a midpoint. Whoops! TPAR to the southern-most NPC system in Delve (319-) requires a stop in SVM (also in Delve) first, and another midpoint between 319 and Nourbal itself. So now we've added a jump, and haven't actually done anything to prevent us from having to make nice with the locals.

What if we nerf jump range? Jump Drive Cal is 25% per level, so a 125% bonus. Lets say that that goes to a 15% per level bonus, so the maximum possible bonus is equal to the current JDC 3. Four jumps still. Maybe 10% per level, equivalent to today's JDC 2? Now we're up to 5.

This isn't just limited to Delve/Querious/PB area either Lets take our home, VFK. As it stands today, I can make the trip from VFK to my preferred lowsec jump-in in just two trips at JDC 4, much less JDC 5. Taking the same 10% per level (JDC 3 equivalent) as above, that climbs to three jumps. I'm lucky here, as it happens - I can ping through the NPC areas of Pure Blind. Whew! Of course, lord help those schmucks up in Branch. Right now they can cyno from BKG to lowsec all the way through NPC space, though doing so requires a cyno on a POS, which isn't exactly good practice for keeping oneself safe. Of course, that's with JDC5. Drop that by so little as one level, the equivalent of a nerf to 20% per level, and they're going through player owned space whether they like it or not. Four jumps at JDC 3 or 4, worse from there.


The drone regions are especially and hilariously screwed if CCP listened to you. Even going back to our current scenario where we've got maxed skills and current jump ranges, the most appealing route I can find from a relatively close region to Empire (Etherium Reach) is jumping out to Frulegur, which is three cyno jumps from 1ACJ-6 (which I picked at random, I don't know much about the region). It's four jumps from FJ-GUR in Oasa, and five from E-BYOS in Cobalt Edge. Of course, today's drone regions are one big friendly family, so going through other regions is fine.

What happens if we start chopping levels off of JDC, effectively nerfing our jump range? Well, not much at JDC4. You stay within the drone regions, at least, no matter where you're coming from. But in that 15% per level example, the equivalent of today's JDC3? Apparently my mapping software is dumb so I'm editing this, but the jumps required increase, quite a bit, as above.

I could move on to regions like Cache or Insmother, but I'm running low on characters, so I digress.

If I haven't made my point by now, it's this. Even today, many regions are cut off from Empire unless you're friendly with your nearer to empire neighbors. Your proposed jump drive nerfs would only exacerbate this, sometimes to hilarious extremes. Without safe supply lines, you're pretty much hosed, and so I ask again - please tell me how your proposed nerfs will do anything but push people further into coalitions. Ignore the industry stuff, just answer that. Thanks.

Thank you for that it was rather informative, as i myself have never operated from that deep within Null Sec.

So yes maybe you are right and my point should not be on the range of Jump drives but the cost

TPAR-G to Nourbal is 26.834 lightyears and uses 20,795 Oxygen Isotopes in an anshar for 330k cargo aproximately

So at current costs it is 414.9 per unit so this does add up a bit its 8,627,845.5 isk or 28.759485 per m2 approximately
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So to take some basic T1 items and show what this cost is (these are pretty much random things I have chosen
medium shield extender costs about 50,000 and takes up about 10m2 so that's about 280 isk in transport costs.
Miner 1 apparently averages at 24,000 (who would have thought that) and takes up 5m2 so about 140 isk trasport.
Stasis webifier I average sell 60,000 and takes up 5m2 so again about 140 isk transport costs
So unless the Nerf involving Hi-sec is less than a relative 1% compared to improvements to Null, Hi-sec will not be able to compete.

But you are right and I was wrong, it should not be the jump ranges that are altered (Even if that system was in the back of beyond) it should be the fuel consumed during jumps that is increased and substantially.

As to power projection of titans I will leave that to others but as to whether a jump drive range nerf would make more people go to the large alliances, personally I think that would have the opposite effect as they could have a harder time protecting such massive amounts of space but anyway my focus is more on industry and mining than blob warfare.

Actually CCP have not really looked at mining and manufacturing until this year, it has always been the forgotten child.

As to how much more lucrative well frankly None at all sort of, what I would like to see is player owned structures being at the for front of refining and manufacturing with areas below -0.0 security having the ability to use or anchor modules (depending on the POS revamp and what happens to outposts) that are better than those available to high sec/lo-sec in availability of slots per cpu/PU usage.

So these areas will be able to create more with a lower base POS cost. for example to run the same number of slots say 20 for a random number you might need a large and a medium or a large and a small tower in empire space while in lower security space you only need the one tower to get the same results.

NPC structures need to be what people start out in they need to be limited eg..no T2/T3 production and with a cost comparable to a POS slot not some ridiculously low amount.

As outposts and POS are for people who are willing to pay for the facilities (and have the ability of them being attacked).

So if you are paying for it continuously and with the added risk should you not be compensated by reward?

Personally I think, if a big alliance wanted to, it could get big mining fleets going. I mean BIG.

You think TEST couldn't mine enough minerals if it was in their interests to do it?

Also the Null blocks could recruit a lot of miners from HIghSec to swell the ranks if they could offer them free ships and more ISK/hr.

So I think it's perfectly possible for a Null block to become self sufficient, especially if there were better yielding roids and a better refine rate.