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You did it to yourselves - Yet Another Boost null/low, nerf hi thread, except not.
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Qolde
Scrambled Eggs Inc.
#1 - 2012-12-29 19:14:44 UTC
For us 0.0 residents who blame all things bad on carebears, we must realize that we do this to ourselves. Hisec in its current form could not exist without our blessings, and decisions to make their lives so convenient and fruitful. Most tech 2 manufacturing and even large ship manufacturing takes place in empire, yet the amount of megacyte, morphite and zydrine required to make this possible ALL must come from nullsec. Every single t2 material that exists must be harvested and processed outside of hisec. So why do we all ferry our goods straight to the carebear capital in Jita?

We know why we do. Because everyone else does, and that's where buyers go. Sensible, logical, and efficient. Now consider this proposal. All nullsec/lowsec organizations who have an interest in making null more active shall flat out refuse to sell anything in any hisec system for at least 3 months. Put it up in a lowsec npc nullsec system near your home for around Jita prices. If one or two small corps do this, it's almost meaningless. But if one of the supercoalitions could see the potential of this change in habits, the results would be awesome for us, and ****** for hisec players.

The outcomes I see would be all good:
Lowsec and NPCNull Trade hubs around the borders of 0.0 would spring to life, presenting trade opportunities to fill the eternal demand of t2 materials in jita.

Pirates notice these trade hubs, and do their thing, possibly decreasing the supply of materials even further, through item destruction. Even better isk for the producer of said goods.

Nullsec denizens save on jump fuel from trying to clear the whole universe just to get to jita and sell to a trade bots buy orders.

Smart cookies start interregional trading routes, balancing out these lowsec/null trade hubs with materials from each major part of space, making the availablity rival jita, and closer to the outer edges of empire, moving production away from The Forge slowly but surely.

0.0 industry fixed
lowsec populated
risk vs reward realized.
delicious tears from the true carebears.

only problem i can think of is getting the supercoalitions to agree on something.

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#2 - 2012-12-29 19:32:15 UTC
Qolde wrote:
only problem i can think of is getting the supercoalitions to agree on something.


sooo the tldr: Nul could fix nul yet they want CCP to be diplos.
shocking.
Potamus Jenkins
eXceed Inc.
Plucky Adventurers
#3 - 2012-12-29 19:36:10 UTC
i am no where near an economist, an industrialist or a carebear but my gut reaction to your proposal is that it is directly in opposition of the laws of supply and demand.


so to expect eve and its free market to collectively lower the supply in the areas of the highest demand causing prices to go through the roof and people not take advantage of that i think is nieve.

i do wish our markets were less centralized but i think thats just the way it works out
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2012-12-29 19:38:06 UTC
There has been attempts to create trade hubs in null in the past.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Cierejai
Biofuel Productions
#5 - 2012-12-29 19:43:15 UTC
Highsec is a lightbulb in a room, and carebears are moths.

We like to crowd around that light, it makes us feel safe.

Your job is to light a match, and draw some of us away, make us appreciate the darkness, need the darkness, thrive in the darkness.

But you don't. You get buttmad when we don't know as much as you.

Lightbulb provides for all.
Qolde
Scrambled Eggs Inc.
#6 - 2012-12-29 19:54:49 UTC
Quote:

There has been attempts to create trade hubs in null in the past.

There are still some pretty good hubs in null and low. They just sell ships though.

Quote:
i am no where near an economist, an industrialist or a carebear but my gut reaction to your proposal is that it is directly in opposition of the laws of supply and demand.


so to expect eve and its free market to collectively lower the supply in the areas of the highest demand causing prices to go through the roof and people not take advantage of that i think is nieve.

i do wish our markets were less centralized but i think thats just the way it works out

I agree that it the free market will attempt to balance itself. Jita will continue to be stocked for a very long time, though if this were attempted the prices would be much higher. The question is whether or not nullsec demands industry enough to make it happen. Jita has kind of had a walmart effect on the rest of the trade hubs in the game. You know you can get everything there, and you know you can sell anything there, so you go there. The market forces in place there force you to sell at a certain price. My question is, if enough people with enough market share on enough items placed their stock in other places, would they grow? Would neighbors eventually trade materials along their borders in stations that allow neutral docking rights? Would we get more gudfites? I think all these things are possible if we took a concerted effort to move t2 production out of hisec. I live in curse, and i can't even find a supply of fernite carbide. I KNOW this **** can be produced here, and all around here, but not many even attempt to sell it.

If there were nowhere else to get your technitium, your ferrogel, your morphite besides low/null. would you wait for someone to move it to Jita? Would you buy it, and set up a courier contract? How would eve at large react to OMEC(Organization of Material Exporting Corporations) and marketgeddon?

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Potamus Jenkins
eXceed Inc.
Plucky Adventurers
#7 - 2012-12-29 20:10:07 UTC
Qolde wrote:
Quote:

There has been attempts to create trade hubs in null in the past.

There are still some pretty good hubs in null and low. They just sell ships though.

Quote:
i am no where near an economist, an industrialist or a carebear but my gut reaction to your proposal is that it is directly in opposition of the laws of supply and demand.


so to expect eve and its free market to collectively lower the supply in the areas of the highest demand causing prices to go through the roof and people not take advantage of that i think is nieve.

i do wish our markets were less centralized but i think thats just the way it works out

I agree that it the free market will attempt to balance itself. Jita will continue to be stocked for a very long time, though if this were attempted the prices would be much higher. The question is whether or not nullsec demands industry enough to make it happen. Jita has kind of had a walmart effect on the rest of the trade hubs in the game. You know you can get everything there, and you know you can sell anything there, so you go there. The market forces in place there force you to sell at a certain price. My question is, if enough people with enough market share on enough items placed their stock in other places, would they grow? Would neighbors eventually trade materials along their borders in stations that allow neutral docking rights? Would we get more gudfites? I think all these things are possible if we took a concerted effort to move t2 production out of hisec. I live in curse, and i can't even find a supply of fernite carbide. I KNOW this **** can be produced here, and all around here, but not many even attempt to sell it.

If there were nowhere else to get your technitium, your ferrogel, your morphite besides low/null. would you wait for someone to move it to Jita? Would you buy it, and set up a courier contract? How would eve at large react to OMEC(Organization of Material Exporting Corporations) and marketgeddon?



i just think what you are asking requires a collective effort which could never be accomplished without outside forces at work (ccp forcing movement) especially since this is like balls to the wall free market so theres always gonna be SOMEONE wanting to take advantage of low supply high demand in hi sec
Qolde
Scrambled Eggs Inc.
#8 - 2012-12-29 20:13:23 UTC
Potamus Jenkins wrote:
Qolde wrote:
Quote:

There has been attempts to create trade hubs in null in the past.

There are still some pretty good hubs in null and low. They just sell ships though.

Quote:
i am no where near an economist, an industrialist or a carebear but my gut reaction to your proposal is that it is directly in opposition of the laws of supply and demand.


so to expect eve and its free market to collectively lower the supply in the areas of the highest demand causing prices to go through the roof and people not take advantage of that i think is nieve.

i do wish our markets were less centralized but i think thats just the way it works out

I agree that it the free market will attempt to balance itself. Jita will continue to be stocked for a very long time, though if this were attempted the prices would be much higher. The question is whether or not nullsec demands industry enough to make it happen. Jita has kind of had a walmart effect on the rest of the trade hubs in the game. You know you can get everything there, and you know you can sell anything there, so you go there. The market forces in place there force you to sell at a certain price. My question is, if enough people with enough market share on enough items placed their stock in other places, would they grow? Would neighbors eventually trade materials along their borders in stations that allow neutral docking rights? Would we get more gudfites? I think all these things are possible if we took a concerted effort to move t2 production out of hisec. I live in curse, and i can't even find a supply of fernite carbide. I KNOW this **** can be produced here, and all around here, but not many even attempt to sell it.

If there were nowhere else to get your technitium, your ferrogel, your morphite besides low/null. would you wait for someone to move it to Jita? Would you buy it, and set up a courier contract? How would eve at large react to OMEC(Organization of Material Exporting Corporations) and marketgeddon?



i just think what you are asking requires a collective effort which could never be accomplished without outside forces at work (ccp forcing movement) especially since this is like balls to the wall free market so theres always gonna be SOMEONE wanting to take advantage of low supply high demand in hi sec


True, there will be someone taking advantage of it. most likely lowsec moon mining ops. But since the whole game is blue right now in null, theres no reason not to give it a shot. They have powerful leaders who could strongly implore their members to bring new cloaky hauly targets with their shiny carrots on sticks that is t2 materials.

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#9 - 2012-12-29 20:14:34 UTC
Qolde wrote:
But since the whole game is blue right now in null

Haha, look at that reasoning.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-12-29 20:16:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
Edit

CCP has already made routes around Jita to cut down on traffic passing through the system.

Change Jita to 0.4 Low-sec (Changed to prevent moon mining and some sort of checks and balances for PvP)

Problem Solved.

Then we will really see what the player want.

Something tells me the hub will just be moved to another high-sec location cause null-sec wants it that way.

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Dave Stark
#11 - 2012-12-29 20:17:37 UTC
please tell me i'm not the only one that's bored of the same thread popping up over and over as if people only know how to hit "new thread" rather than "reply"?
Qolde
Scrambled Eggs Inc.
#12 - 2012-12-29 20:19:04 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
please tell me i'm not the only one that's bored of the same thread popping up over and over as if people only know how to hit "new thread" rather than "reply"?

Because my idea is better than the rest, and deserves to be a topic, not a reply. Cool

If someone craps in your sandbox: 1. Light it on fire 2. Grab your shovel 3. Throw it back at them.
Dave Stark
#13 - 2012-12-29 20:20:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Qolde wrote:
Dave stark wrote:
please tell me i'm not the only one that's bored of the same thread popping up over and over as if people only know how to hit "new thread" rather than "reply"?

Because my idea is better than the rest, and deserves to be a topic, not a reply. Cool

that's what they all say :)

oh, and;
Qolde wrote:
So why do we all ferry our goods straight to the carebear capital in Jita?


so you can compress low ends and ferry them back to null since null is a **** poor place to obtain low ends.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-12-29 20:23:29 UTC
It would be wonderful if it was possible to "just not sell to high".

We need to be able to utilize the materials gathered in null. (IE: manufacturing line)

We would also need the capacity to do the invention required to produce the blueprints needed to manufacture the goods that are going to use the most amount of high end materials.

Higher availability to materials doesn't help me when I don't have lines to support it.

Markets would crash.

There is no way to "not sell to high". It has to happen, it will happen.

I"d personally rather see T2 materials seeded directly to null markets where they can be purchased at a base price, and all export can be done from there. As apposed to it beeing seeded to high sec markets where high sec industrialists have a better chance of first purchase and minimal import/ export cost concerns. However, that would require a null to be able to support all the PoS's needed to produce the materials.

Disclaimer: Full blown assumption ahead.
I'm just guessing on this one. I'm assuming that there aren't enough moons in null to build all the PoS's that would be required to convert raw materials into useable products. I'm assuming that the initial statges of production on advanced components and materials is done in null, then shipped to high and low where the "next stage" of production occurs to create the materials used in T2 and up production; due to PoS restrictions.

I'm assuming that before CCP can ever "fix" anything, they need to do the PoS revamp. As well as reduce the extent of what you can do as an industrialist from the safety of the NPC corporations. (IE:Require T2 production to be done from player run structures such as the revamped PoS's and player run stations.)
Potamus Jenkins
eXceed Inc.
Plucky Adventurers
#15 - 2012-12-29 20:26:15 UTC
Simetraz wrote:
CCP has already made routes around Jita to cut down on traffic passing through the system.

Change Jita to 0.0 NPC Null.

Problem Solved.

Then we will really see what the player want.

Something tells me the hub will just be moved to another high-sec location cause null-sec wants it that way.



the player wants profit the easiest way possible. thats what the player wants. the player doesnt care where this is they want

profit
ease

now you can prioritize those two however you want, BUT the people in this game to make isk are gonna make their isk. so changing jita to null would not accomplish anything except causing the hub to shift.



this is natural human(probably all animal) instinct. and at a minimum the natural adaptation of the market.

there is no reason people wouldnt immediately start doing their trade in a more secure area. you essentially just increased your operating costs (now you need protection to undock, smaller ships[less cargo], more expensive ships carry less quantities, replacing more ships/goods etc..) so there is no logical reason to continue unless the profit is going up to compensate for the rise in operating costs. which of course isnt happening because demand in your new nullsec system will drop as well.


sorry taking off my pretend economist hat now, please feel free to tell me im way off the mark.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-12-29 20:26:19 UTC
Dave stark wrote:
please tell me i'm not the only one that's bored of the same thread popping up over and over as if people only know how to hit "new thread" rather than "reply"?

You're not the only one.

Amusingly enough these kinds of threads were not all over the place months ago like they are now. The HBCFC coalition will have all of null blue or in some NIP before too long, save for some entities living out of NPC null. Which they have demonstrated in the past they want NPC null gone too. The reason why you are seeing these threads all over the place is they would much rather blame high sec for their boredom than themselves.

I say let them sleep in the bed they made. P
psycho freak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-12-29 20:31:38 UTC  |  Edited by: psycho freak
null sec is a joke to alot of ppl

ppl dont like to put alot assests at risk and with blob warfare sov taken station teken ppl lose alot they junk
make all null npc space job done you see alot more willing to take the risk

ppl dont like cta its our game time we do wtf we want with it not what some jumped up null dude says

if you null secers have problem with null adapt or try fix or gtfo all this whineing kinda getting silly

nothing rong with losec
nothing rong with hisec

nurf hisec and ccp will lose alot subs

losec is were I live and do 90% my activatys 10% hisec

null sec 0%

mostly becouse the ppl that live there I put up with them for three years and wouldnt wast another second on them

so cry whine beg ccp for nurf of other area wont change jack sh#t except the loss of subs

my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k

nop cant find it
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-12-29 20:31:47 UTC
Potamus Jenkins wrote:
Simetraz wrote:
CCP has already made routes around Jita to cut down on traffic passing through the system.

Change Jita to 0.0 NPC Null.

Problem Solved.

Then we will really see what the player want.

Something tells me the hub will just be moved to another high-sec location cause null-sec wants it that way.



the player wants profit the easiest way possible. thats what the player wants. the player doesnt care where this is they want

profit
ease

now you can prioritize those two however you want, BUT the people in this game to make isk are gonna make their isk. so changing jita to null would not accomplish anything except causing the hub to shift.



this is natural human(probably all animal) instinct. and at a minimum the natural adaptation of the market.

there is no reason people wouldnt immediately start doing their trade in a more secure area. you essentially just increased your operating costs (now you need protection to undock, smaller ships[less cargo], more expensive ships carry less quantities, replacing more ships/goods etc..) so there is no logical reason to continue unless the profit is going up to compensate for the rise in operating costs. which of course isnt happening because demand in your new nullsec system will drop as well.


sorry taking off my pretend economist hat now, please feel free to tell me im way off the mark.



I wonder how bad it would truly be if Jita's trade hub was "moved" away anyways.

I think it would be exciting.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Rengerel en Distel
#19 - 2012-12-29 20:31:57 UTC
I personally think most people that care in the game are hoping that the POS revamp happens, and it's done correctly. Personal POS set ups. 100% refining in null/WH arrays, etc.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#20 - 2012-12-29 20:32:33 UTC
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
I personally think most people that care in the game are hoping that the POS revamp happens, and it's done correctly. Personal POS set ups. 100% refining in null/WH arrays, etc.

Some bold assumptions there Cool

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
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