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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Caldari! To arms!

Author
Kraven Fawkes
Fawkes Dynamics Surveillance and Security Firm
#121 - 2012-12-28 07:02:30 UTC
Erik Kaassan wrote:
Kraven Fawkes wrote:
Sakura Nihil wrote:
My only gripe is that while they shot him, they missed all the important areas.

If you're going to do something, do it right.


Perhaps they did "do it right". I have found that a staged assault can be of more use then the sudden one. In the staged event, you survive and you get to turn up the hate thermostat a few degrees higher.


The man is useful but has a 0% approval rating among the general populace. Why intentionally keep him alive when you have a chance to end him?


Simple, because there are people like Kim in the State that would take an attack against the Director as a good reason to cry for more war, less over sight of the Provists, harder sanctions against what property the Gallentians of Caldari Prime are allowed. There are so many political reasons for this, not to mention he is now a State "Hero" again, if only for a few months he will be relevant again.
Erik Kaassan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#122 - 2012-12-28 07:29:17 UTC
Kraven Fawkes wrote:
Erik Kaassan wrote:
Kraven Fawkes wrote:
Sakura Nihil wrote:
My only gripe is that while they shot him, they missed all the important areas.

If you're going to do something, do it right.


Perhaps they did "do it right". I have found that a staged assault can be of more use then the sudden one. In the staged event, you survive and you get to turn up the hate thermostat a few degrees higher.


The man is useful but has a 0% approval rating among the general populace. Why intentionally keep him alive when you have a chance to end him?


Simple, because there are people like Kim in the State that would take an attack against the Director as a good reason to cry for more war, less over sight of the Provists, harder sanctions against what property the Gallentians of Caldari Prime are allowed. There are so many political reasons for this, not to mention he is now a State "Hero" again, if only for a few months he will be relevant again.


Correct me if I'm wrong but you make it sound like Heth shot himself to raise his approval rating. My friend, there's conspiracy and then there is nonsense. I would guess you just crossed that line.
Kraven Fawkes
Fawkes Dynamics Surveillance and Security Firm
#123 - 2012-12-28 07:52:19 UTC
Erik Kaassan wrote:
Kraven Fawkes wrote:
Erik Kaassan wrote:
Kraven Fawkes wrote:
Sakura Nihil wrote:
My only gripe is that while they shot him, they missed all the important areas.

If you're going to do something, do it right.


Perhaps they did "do it right". I have found that a staged assault can be of more use then the sudden one. In the staged event, you survive and you get to turn up the hate thermostat a few degrees higher.


The man is useful but has a 0% approval rating among the general populace. Why intentionally keep him alive when you have a chance to end him?


Simple, because there are people like Kim in the State that would take an attack against the Director as a good reason to cry for more war, less over sight of the Provists, harder sanctions against what property the Gallentians of Caldari Prime are allowed. There are so many political reasons for this, not to mention he is now a State "Hero" again, if only for a few months he will be relevant again.


Correct me if I'm wrong but you make it sound like Heth shot himself to raise his approval rating. My friend, there's conspiracy and then there is nonsense. I would guess you just crossed that line.


I suggested no such thing. Tibus Heth has never proven himself to be a brave man, and no I do not think that marching into the mud to get the body of a boy you sent out to pretend to be you and die in your place is brave. And while I do not think that any person in his inner circle would have come up with an idea that put the vaunted Heth in harms way, I would never put it past the Templis to sacrifice a man to further their goals, even if that man was the State Director.

Do keep in mind that Souro Fortitan was the most popular man President the Federation had ever seen, until he wasnt. He was then replaced by an Empyrean by a population that love him and had always rejected the idea of a capsuleer in a seat of power above them and they called "Rodent" behind his back. Saftey in politics is only as secure as how long ago your last win was, and Heths last win was going on 5 years ago.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#124 - 2012-12-28 09:07:43 UTC
Thankfully our leaders don't have to subject themselves to a popularity contest every few years to maintain their positions - all they have to do is prove that they still merit holding them. Executor Heth may not have been making strides in improving his visibility in Federation politics but he has continued to have his hand on the reins here at home and he has continued to act in a manner that is congruent with our beliefs and ideals.

Of course, the Executor does have to prove that the very position of Executor remains necessary, but given the current political, military and economic situation that the State finds itself in, this is not hard. Ironically it is the continuing Gallente efforts to ride roughshod over the States right to self-determination that cements Executor Heth's powerbase - as he has shown in the past that he is good at speaking a language the Federation understands.

As for Heth's bravery, he personally led the liberation of the Homeworld. It's hard to think of any more enduring image than that, it speaks to the soul of every single Caldari in a way that transcends our political divisions. Another Federation created stimulus to Heth's career - if they hadn't bombarded and occupied the Homeworld in the first place, there would have been no liberation to immortalise the Executor.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2012-12-28 11:11:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
The fact he's a certified nutjob that got into power in the first place is enough to immortalize him.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2012-12-28 12:28:16 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Of course, the Executor does have to prove that the very position of Executor remains necessary, but given the current political, military and economic situation that the State finds itself in, this is not hard. Ironically it is the continuing Gallente efforts to ride roughshod over the States right to self-determination that cements Executor Heth's powerbase - as he has shown in the past that he is good at speaking a language the Federation understands.

As for Heth's bravery, he personally led the liberation of the Homeworld. It's hard to think of any more enduring image than that, it speaks to the soul of every single Caldari in a way that transcends our political divisions. Another Federation created stimulus to Heth's career - if they hadn't bombarded and occupied the Homeworld in the first place, there would have been no liberation to immortalise the Executor.


By all of this you must surely mean the war against the Federation that the State started, violating a vast number of treaties, agreements and CONCORD provisions, and continued even once they had what they wanted? The year-long occupation and orbital blockade of the homeworld of a founding member of the Federation? The six-month occupation of a vast swath of our sovereign territory? The auctioning of development rights that were never yours to sell, in systems that you had no right to speak for? The violation of Federal sovereign territory and the constant use of the hilariously hypocritical threat of planetary annihilation against an ethnic homeworld?

I respect you, Tuulinen-han, and I admit the Federation has made many mistakes, but the State is anything but blameless in this affair.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#127 - 2012-12-28 15:49:01 UTC
Erik Kaassan wrote:
The man is useful but has a 0% approval rating among the general populace. Why intentionally keep him alive when you have a chance to end him?


0% approval rating? Do you mean amongst the Gallente general populace, sir? He is well loved by the State, and with good reason. The reforms he brought with him to power improved the lives of the average Caldari greatly, cut back the hedonistic excesses of nepotism and populism, and returned the State to its proper formation, internally. You may make case for disliking his foreign policy, but I assure you, he is well loved by the State.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#128 - 2012-12-28 17:03:19 UTC
Scherezad wrote:
returned the State to its proper formation, internally.


Well, aside from the existence of the CPD. I'm still uneasy about that.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#129 - 2012-12-28 17:11:28 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Scherezad wrote:
returned the State to its proper formation, internally.


Well, aside from the existence of the CPD. I'm still uneasy about that.


Yes, that is different, and a little worrying. Still! It has made an interesting experiment.
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#130 - 2012-12-28 17:34:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Desiderya
Ixiris wrote:


By all of this you must surely mean the war against the Federation that the State started, violating a vast number of treaties, agreements and CONCORD provisions, and continued even once they had what they wanted? The year-long occupation and orbital blockade of the homeworld of a founding member of the Federation? The six-month occupation of a vast swath of our sovereign territory? The auctioning of development rights that were never yours to sell, in systems that you had no right to speak for? The violation of Federal sovereign territory and the constant use of the hilariously hypocritical threat of planetary annihilation against an ethnic homeworld?

I respect you, Tuulinen-han, and I admit the Federation has made many mistakes, but the State is anything but blameless in this affair.


Violating CONCORD regulations after the initial push? You must be joking. This war is in effect under CONCORD regulations and supervision, and has been renewed thanks to the interest on both sides of this table. I'd like to point out that all it needed for a cessation of this war would be to official acknowledge Caldari Prime as staying under State control. A small prize for years of peace, but still a prize big enough for the federation to accept.
History is repeating itself, because with all the liberties and freedoms the federation likes to write upon its own flag it is remarkably ungenerous when it comes to grant other parties the freedom to say "no" when it comes to the question of accepting the federal vision of how New Eden's cultures should be taking care of themselves.

Regarding the auction of development rights - I do not understand the criticism there. It is the most sane thing to regulate how potential territorial gains will be administered to avoid conflicts of interests, unrest and confusion. You might be inclined to agree that this is the best course of action for the local populace as well.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.

Kraven Fawkes
Fawkes Dynamics Surveillance and Security Firm
#131 - 2012-12-29 01:56:08 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:

As for Heth's bravery, he personally led the liberation of the Homeworld. It's hard to think of any more enduring image than that, it speaks to the soul of every single Caldari in a way that transcends our political divisions. Another Federation created stimulus to Heth's career - if they hadn't bombarded and occupied the Homeworld in the first place, there would have been no liberation to immortalise the Executor.


Sir I do not mean to trivialize what you are saying, but the simple fact is that while he took part in the libertaion of Caldari Prime, he in no way lead that attack, planned it nor executed it, that glory falls to the Navy, and the Navy alone. Furthermore diverting entire divisions during a full scale invasion of an enemy planet, mere celestial feet from the enemies homeworld, to guard one man is not bravery but hubris.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#132 - 2012-12-29 04:37:30 UTC
Tibus Heth personally piloted an M-Tac on the surface of Home during the bitterest fighting for control of the surface.

Say what you like about the intelligence of putting the Executor of the State in such personal danger OR the strategic effect it had on the operations underway, you cannot call the man a coward. Everything about Heth suggests that he shrugs off personal danger as an acceptable cost of doing business, from his actions in the labour dispute that brought him to power right the way up to his insistence on public appearances at political rallies.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#133 - 2012-12-29 04:45:24 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:

By all of this you must surely mean the war against the Federation that the State started, violating a vast number of treaties, agreements and CONCORD provisions, and continued even once they had what they wanted? The year-long occupation and orbital blockade of the homeworld of a founding member of the Federation? The six-month occupation of a vast swath of our sovereign territory? The auctioning of development rights that were never yours to sell, in systems that you had no right to speak for? The violation of Federal sovereign territory and the constant use of the hilariously hypocritical threat of planetary annihilation against an ethnic homeworld?

I respect you, Tuulinen-han, and I admit the Federation has made many mistakes, but the State is anything but blameless in this affair.


Msr Ixiris, I want you to know that I bear you no personal ill-will, either. I hope my opinions don't do too much to damage the respect you hold me in, but I feel moved to express them regardless!

First of all, you cannot consider the recapture of Home to be a brand-new war. Home has always been unfinished business - it is, after all, the basic toast, motto and mantra of the State that 'We WILL return'. We returned. Sorry if you don't like the manner in which it was accomplished, but I know that you also don't like the manner in which it was originally made necessary, so I hope the two simply balance out in the grand scheme of things.

Secondly, the threat of planetary bombardment is the only thing that has prevented an expensive fleet action in the orbit of one of our homeworlds and the possible annihilation of part of one or both of them in the ensuing conflagration. The threat and the fact that Blaque and Roden know that Heth would greenlight it and CalNav would carry out that order is all that has preserved the status quo ante and prevented a dreadful atrocity.

Thirdly, you have a laundry list of complaints and, perhaps, they ought to be adressed by State officials. Perhaps if the situation were to relax a little and the proxy war between our Factions were to cease. As things are now there is endless amounts of bad blood and fresh hate obscuring the middle path but I will say this - we are fighting for Home and for our rights to self-determination and economic freedom. Do you really know what the Federation is fighting for? What it hopes to gain?

Think about it. The war could be over within a month, if only the right steps were taken.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Kraven Fawkes
Fawkes Dynamics Surveillance and Security Firm
#134 - 2012-12-29 04:49:57 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Tibus Heth personally piloted an M-Tac on the surface of Home during the bitterest fighting for control of the surface.

Say what you like about the intelligence of putting the Executor of the State in such personal danger OR the strategic effect it had on the operations underway, you cannot call the man a coward. Everything about Heth suggests that he shrugs off personal danger as an acceptable cost of doing business, from his actions in the labour dispute that brought him to power right the way up to his insistence on public appearances at political rallies.



Stop. I am a patriot, I love my State and its people so let me say that first. Tibus Heth showed zero courage in that labor dispute, he asked a young man to meet with the Executor of Caldari Construction, knowing the boy would be killed, and then when the crowd outside turned against Home Guard, he came out for the body. On Caldari Prime he did pilot a MTAC, but not through heavy fighting, but rather through civilian Gallente shopers in that market district and through Gallente Security forces who had had their weapons deactivated by EMP bursts set off before the attack began.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#135 - 2012-12-29 05:02:20 UTC
You mean that shopping district that was the centerpiece for the famed Valley Norge battle? Do you consider any of the other Caldari soldiers who fought there to be cowards? Do you consider any of the Navy personnel who manned the taskforce that jumped into Luminaire and warped to Home to be cowards?

Any of the protestors who took part in that labour dispute with Heth (other than the boy who was assassinated) to be cowards?

You're judging the man against standards you're not applying to anyone else. I didn't say he was a superhuman who personally won the battle for Home, I just said that what he did there - simply by BEING there - was not cowardice.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Kraven Fawkes
Fawkes Dynamics Surveillance and Security Firm
#136 - 2012-12-29 05:47:52 UTC
Valley Norge was not a battle, it was a slaughter of civilians and peace keepers who's means to mount an offensive was taken away by an EMP,there was scant resistance there, or anywhere planetside. I do not consider any of us whom fought there brave nor cowardly, we were soldiers who did our duty against an enemy we had every measure of superiority over.

As to the people whom took the facility with Heth, no they were not cowards. They reminded ALL Caldari what we were meant to be. They reminded us that we are a proud people who only ask a fair shake and an honest days pay. But that was not what was intended by Heth. His plan was to make martyrs that would be noticed for a moment and then forgotten by an apathetic society. To prolong his moment in the sun he sent a boy to die in his place.

However Otro Gariushi, a former Gurista Pirate, showed us that the best way to change a system you hate, is to use that system as the catalyst of change. This man took the reigns of a dying mega-corp and changed it into the "shining city on the hill" of what Caldari are meant to be. He did not ask for Caldari blood, nor sacrifice young men, to make that dream a reality if only for a brief moment. Hard work, dedication to purpose and perseverance were the Ishukone way under his leadership. "Lift yourself up by your own boots and merits" were Garisuhi's motto and under his leadership, it was possible to do so.

Simply being in the right place, or putting yourself there, does not make you a hero. I was there commanding a Surveillance unit. I was as safe from harm as Heth was surrounded by armored divisions and infantry. I am not a hero, I am not a coward, and I am not an opportunist using the blood of others to carry my name through the ages.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#137 - 2012-12-29 06:07:37 UTC
First of all, thank you for your service on Caldari Prime, you may not be a hero but you are certainly a rolemodel.

Otro Gariushi, however, IS someone who can be defined as a hero. I certainly consider Ishukone under him to have been an excellent example of the strength of the State. Holding him up as a comparison to Executor Heth is to miss the point, somewhat. The State functions best when it contains Heths and Gariushis and Tovil-Tobas and every other sort of Citizen, each able to contend in the marketplace of ideas.

Take your wonderful service on Caldari Prime, for example, service for which you should be commended and were hopefully rewarded. It wasn't Otro Gariushi who brought you there, you arrived in the van of Executor Tibus Heth. And the part he played may not have been at the forefront of battle, but it was still IN the battle - almost unheard of for a head of state in these days.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Kraven Fawkes
Fawkes Dynamics Surveillance and Security Firm
#138 - 2012-12-29 06:22:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Kraven Fawkes
My point is that under Otro Gariushi, the battle would not have ever happened. Before his murder, and yes that son of a ***** Noir murdered him and thousands of others, Gariushi and the Gallente President Fortian were on a road that would have lead to the first real peace our two nations would have had. This peace would not have earned us back Caldari Prime, but this peace could have lead to a stronger economy and perhaps in a long road, a return to Caldari Prime not as conquerors but as a people coming home.

Peace is never the "sexy" road. No one would have remembered Gariushi nor Fortian for their efforts, many would have hated them for it in fact. I would like to quote a rare expert I have found that changed my way of thinking.

"Peace is the long road that circles the mountain, winding and twisting, often losing sight of the summit altogether. Many choose to scale the cliffs of war to the summit, bellowing rage against the wind and the mountain itself for defying their will. They tear at the mountains flesh with their hooks, they attempt to subdue her with their ropes, cursing and panting all the way. In the cold of the the apathetic mountain their extremities turn black with her bite, comrades fall to her abysses, but finally one reaches the summit and finds me, who has taken the long way."

~Vilamo Gariushi, father of former Ishukone CEO Otro Gariushi.~

One day we will have the reckoning with the Gallente we as a people deserve, it will not be counted in the tally of blood my friend, but in the tally of those whom we call our enemies, acknowledging us as their equals. We who were once their underlings like the Intaki, now returned as equals, this is the victory we deserve.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#139 - 2012-12-29 06:41:53 UTC
But they did murder Otro Gariushi. And they did destroy the Malkalen station.

So, with Otro's strategy having been brought to the most abject failure we tried Heth's - and Heth took us Home. Took you Home. I hope, one day, to stand on the world my ancestors came from and breathe the air that they breathed, climb the peaks that they climbed, feel the Winds that they felt.

That's why I'm sat in Eha system, dodging Pirates and fighting War Targets and patrolling installations to keep alive the idea that the State does not bow down. If another Otro Gariushi comes along and negotiates a peace then I'll happily ship out of the War Zone and start thinking about peace - not that there seems to be an abundance of it out here amongst the stars.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#140 - 2012-12-29 06:44:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
By all of this you must surely mean the war against the Federation that the State started, violating a vast number of treaties, agreements and CONCORD provisions, and continued even once they had what they wanted?


State Executor Tibus Heth would have been guilty of a breach of duty and treason against the State if, after the atrocity of mass-murder in Malkalen by Federation Navy Admiral Noir, seeing its enemies potentially preparing for war against the Caldari people did not strike first in order to defend the sovereign interests of the Caldari State. Interstellar agreements are simply the codifications of political interests and the CONCORD Assembly is not recognized as an authority to dictate terms to the Caldari State, nor shall the Caldari State be restricted in the pursuit of its sovereign rights and interests by any entity. Peace in interstellar affairs is not assured by pointed words but by pointed bullets and force of arms, for violence has always been the final arbiter in disputes between states and nations -- not scraps of paper.

The Caldari State responded to an act of outright violence and blatant aggression against its sovereignty by the Federation with the limited and restricted use of force aimed solely in asserting its historical claim to the homeworld of its people and to defend the graves of our ancestors against the desecration conducted by Gallentean ultra-nationalists who rejoiced in the vicious act of terrorism carried out in Malkalen by the Federal military extremist, Admiral Noir.

The Federation had the choice to recognize the historical claims of the Caldari State and the legitimacy of its right to territorial ownership of the Homeworld, it however did not and continues not to do so. The onus of responsibility for the continuation of conflict and hostilities then lies with a Federation that, when given the rational option of negotiating with the Caldari State to ensure an effective bilateral compromise over the Luminaire Question such as the demilitarization of the system, recognition of the territorial claim by the Caldari State over the Homeworld, and permit oversight of any accords reached by CONCORD instead has chosen the irrational option of war to satisfy nothing more than its own hubris and pride.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
The year-long occupation and orbital blockade of the homeworld of a founding member of the Federation? The six-month occupation of a vast swath of our sovereign territory? The auctioning of development rights that were never yours to sell, in systems that you had no right to speak for? The violation of Federal sovereign territory and the constant use of the hilariously hypocritical threat of planetary annihilation against an ethnic homeworld?


Caldari Prime is the Homeworld of the Caldari people and the Caldari State is the sole, legitimate, authority to make claim to its soil.

The Federation chose war and the State prosecuted it as duty and obligation demanded.

The blind auction was designed to act as incentive for CEP members to undertake Peace and Security operations through their corporate-militaries in order to release State military units from the task. It was never a claim to ownership or political sovereignty over free and independent peoples caught in the CEWPA zones.

The threat of full crust planetary vitrification in the Luminaire system has served as an effective force deterrence option so far. A threat must always be believed to be carried out in order to serve as a deterrence however, and I am certain that if the Federation crosses the clear lines in the sand then the Caldari Navy will execute their duty with due diligence and make threats into reality.

Andreus Ixiris wrote:
but the State is anything but blameless in this affair.


There exists no blame when the Caldari State as a nation and State Executor Tibus Heth as its leader have fulfilled the moral imperatives of asserting its territorial rights, political sovereignty, and corporate interests against a Federation that has sought to deny them.

Just as a blade only knows it is a blade when it makes the cut, so does a Caldari only know they are Caldari when they spill blood for the State.

Kurilaivonen|Concern