EVE Fiction

Sorry to be picky, Eterne, but I do not remember any mention of the Gallente fielding frigates of their own during the Caldari-Gallente war in old PF (ship descriptions included). I always thought they were somthing the Gallente acquired much later, like how the Caldari at one point or another started to use drones too.

The picture I get, when reading The War Drones On , is the Federation as this lumbering behemonth; slow to move, but with a devastating punch. The Caldari is nimble and agile, but lack the strength to do any serious damage. A bit like a dreadnaught against a frigate, to use an in game comparison. The chronicle finishes nicely by creating the setting of the two sides wanting to continue the war, but both knowing that their weakness is exactly their enemys strength.

The new Gallente history articles gives a different scenario, where it was all down to incompetent Gallente leadership and the will of the Gallente people that made all the difference. By talking about Gallente frigates and the superiority of their drones, one get the impression that the Caldari had no advantages at all.

BTW: Sitting here and talk with you about the "correctness" of EVE PF seems... odd.

I thought neither side had a decisive advantage, that's why it was a stalemate?

Also where does this "Gallente are socialist" thing come from? Is that GOP "any government presence at all is socialist" thing? Just because a government gives aid doesn't make it socialist. The Gallente are libertarian but apparently aren't stupid enough to forget that if you're born on a planet with no opportunity anyway, saying "Everyone can reach the top!" is silly. It seems any aid isn't universal anyway, so loads of hellholes.

Also the State don't have any poverty at all. They don't acknowledge it. As far as they're concerned it doesn't exist.

Careful now, 'advantage' and 'decisive advantage' are not the same things. The latter means certainty that you will win the outcome, the former does not guaranty it. As both sides had different advantages that, funny enough, matched their opponent’s disadvantage, they ended up in a stalemate.

Now, what I, and apparently not just me, am opposing against is the retcon of the Gallente’s disadvantage/the Caldari’s advantage (frigates to counter massive warships).

In TEA, the Federation is said to take care of all of its citizens - part of being a utopia, dontcha know - so that would be the element of socialism referred to in his post. He also points out that TEA not only portrays the Federation as taking care of all of its citizens, but also managing to be better capitalists than the Caldari, who really are portrayed as selfish, barbaric pigs to a man, save for TonyG's pet Ishukone, which is "trying to be good", but just can't manage it and stay profitable because, well, they just aren't the federation.

2 ^ This

The Gallente Federation is painted, quite clearly, as a social democracy.. i.e. Socialist leanings, much as we have today in a few European countries. While some of these countries do a wonderful job of taking care of their people and their long term needs, there is a high cost involved. This cost is ofset by taxation, sometimes upwards of 60-70% of earnings. And not one of them is a economic powerhouse in the world markets.

Still others that fall under the banner of social democracies have ALWAYS struggled to maintain economic stability. A little hand wavium is fine, but, there comes a point where it starts to look like someone needs to do a little more homework.

As well, "Utopian" is intended to mark a society as the best possible solution to the problems facing mankind. EVERY other attempt, Immensea, Nation, etc. etc. et al. ad nauseum has failed horribly. And now the devs have granted this illustrious, near perfect title to the Federation, in print, canonized for all to bear witness to.

One has to wonder, have the Gallente given up gun rights? What protects the people from abuse of power by the government? Oh yes, the Gallente have all agreed that noone they elect will EVER take advantage of the power that has been handed to them. Right... The Black Eagles do that for them.. Utopian? Dystopian...

Seriphyn, I consider myself Libertarian. The GOP is far from Libertarian, as is the Gallente Federation. To be Libertarian is to be Liberal in the truest sense. To allow as much freedom as possible within the constraints of whatever founding documents you adhere to. In my case, the United States Constitution.

And yes, that means less government is GOOD. Along with that truism comes a price, personal responsibility. Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Words hold meaning, censorship dumbs down the masses. I, and anyone else, should be free to spew whatever drivvle I choose, as long as I hold the sure knowledge that it will reflect upon me personally. Which I do.

Social Democracy...

Libertarianism...

Which would you consider the Gallente Federation to be, again?

My statements were not meant to paint the State as superior to the Federation. My argument is that niether holds moral superiority over the other. Some, Tony G in particular, has thrown in a bit of personal bias into his writings, which others have grasped upon and forwarded as the so called gospel. The biggest problem I have here is with the word "Utopian" and the apparent willingness by some to afford this falsehood respectability and canonization.

Much of this IS likely because the player base has chosen to embrace Caldari as the better racial class. I did so for different reasons, not even really understanding the differences at the time. But, as I said, words are powerful things, let's make sure we understand them before we commit them to print...

Oh and Lawful Neutral for the State, thank you very much.. =)

So essentially, you agree that it is not Libertarian, but, a Social Democracy. You just find that, for you, it approaches what you consider Utopian. While I might be willing to agree that it is the closest to a Utopian society as you will find in the Grimdark, Dystopian world of New Eden, I will never go so far as to call it a Utopia.

Case in point, the Black Eagles, a Utopian society would have no need of them...

Mahh.... It is neither....In the fed: You have your free raider, which would -- as you mention before -- destroy your social democratic society; as well as the missing of personal responsibility*, which inherent part for libertarian society (without you would miss vital part for social welfare, the people). So it is neither. So it is more or less like our all societies with LESS CYBERPUNK. Which means with less dark corners (Thanks to Tony G ).



I WANT MORE CYBERPUNK FOR THE GALLENTE: See here.



Edit: How can I "I want more"... even make bigger?
Edit 2: *for oneself and others.

Saede, is abusive somehow better than brutal? The Federation has shown itself to be abusive to external entities, verbally and beyond. And finally, there is the issue of Drones. Take animal rights, do the drones conform to the perception of them being electric sheep? If they "emerge" as sentient in the coming months or years, does the "best" designation still stick?

Would that human endeavor were so cut and dried, it is not, and never will be.

I believe the Gallente Federation is an utopia as much as communism is an utopia.

Which basically it comes down to:

The ideals and way of thinking are in the right place but utopias shall remain utopias in the true sense of the word as much like true communism is not possible due to human nature, true utopias aren't possible either for the same reason.

So the Gallente Federation isn't really a legitimate utopia per se but it has the heart in the right place for it. There's just an abyss in the way, unforntunately.

Since I'm an upbeat, romantic and idealist person I tend to go past the obstacles and can grasp it. Since the Federation is a make believe nation, it's fun to do.