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Nerf unbonused TDs
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Alara IonStorm
#21 - 2012-12-28 00:17:09 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

The thing about it is that a disruption module is either effective or it isn't. If you make it almost wholly ineffective (as you suggest), then you may as well completely remove the ability to fit a control modules to unbonused ships at all.

Like ECM? I would think a 37.5% cut in Tracking or Opt and Falloff could be devastating to an enemy in the right circumstances. Wholly ineffective would not be a work to describe them though they might wreck a few setups totally reliant on an unbonused TD for victory.
Koujjo Dian
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2012-12-28 00:17:26 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:


To me the question is: if you know that people are all flying a certain kind of fit... why aren't you countering it?

-Liang


Because IMO there's few counters to it and if you bring an obvious counter such as a missile or drone ship they simply won't fight you, unless of course they're stupid, which does happen.

I actually had planned to shelve that beam coercer fit and only undocked it because I lost my pulse coercer. But I probably will fly it quite a bit now just to counter these fits. But I just feel like the mechanic is limiting me to just a few fits unless I want to roll the dice with every ship I engage.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#23 - 2012-12-28 00:22:30 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

The thing about it is that a disruption module is either effective or it isn't. If you make it almost wholly ineffective (as you suggest), then you may as well completely remove the ability to fit a control modules to unbonused ships at all.

Like ECM? I would think a 37.5% cut in Tracking or Opt and Falloff could be devastating to an enemy in the right circumstances. Wholly ineffective would not be a work to describe them though they might wreck a few setups totally reliant on an unbonused TD for victory.


I think that ECM and TDs are very very very different mechanics. TDs don't prevent you from controlling your drones. They don't prevent you from neuting. They don't prevent you from RRing. They don't prevent you from shooting. They don't prevent you from seeing health. They are counterable through piloting actions. With ECM you just sit there.

That is not the same discussion at all and if you can't see that then there is no hope for you.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#24 - 2012-12-28 00:25:27 UTC
Koujjo Dian wrote:

Because IMO there's few counters to it and if you bring an obvious counter such as a missile or drone ship they simply won't fight you, unless of course they're stupid, which does happen.

I actually had planned to shelve that beam coercer fit and only undocked it because I lost my pulse coercer. But I probably will fly it quite a bit now just to counter these fits. But I just feel like the mechanic is limiting me to just a few fits unless I want to roll the dice with every ship I engage.


So you aren't complaining that there aren't counters or that the counters aren't effective... just that you can't fly any old thing and get the results you wanted?

Cool.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#25 - 2012-12-28 00:32:08 UTC
The current plexes don't really favor ewar as much as they used to. If you take a frail frigate with ewar as a tank into a camped plex you shouldn't be surprised by the results. Also - missiles AND drones don't care about ewar. Many of the new frigates carry the latter. Before the rebalancing I went with the 'lock farther and shoot farther' solution.
Alara IonStorm
#26 - 2012-12-28 00:38:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Liang Nuren wrote:

I think that ECM and TDs are very very very different mechanics. TDs don't prevent you from controlling your drones. They don't prevent you from neuting. They don't prevent you from RRing. They don't prevent you from shooting. They don't prevent you from seeing health. They are counterable through piloting actions. With ECM you just sit there.

That is not the same discussion at all and if you can't see that then there is no hope for you.

What are you on about?

I never compared the module to ECM at all. I was commenting to your thought that 37.5% Disruption would be wholly useless and they might as well take away their use in comparison to ECM play style which isn't a big module off of bonused ships.

I do not think 37.5% will warrant the removal of fitting the module on an unbonused hull as you suggest. In fact I think it could be plenty useful in some situations like Battleship Tracking and Kiter range dropping but to get highly effective use you should have to use the bonused ships.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#27 - 2012-12-28 01:02:17 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
What are you on about?

I never compared the module to ECM at all. I was commenting to your thought that 37.5% Disruption would be wholly useless and they might as well take away their use in comparison to ECM play style which isn't a big module off of bonused ships.

I do not think 37.5% will warrant the removal of fitting the module on an unbonused hull as you suggest. In fact I think it could be plenty useful in some situations like Battleship Tracking and Kiter range dropping but to get highly effective use you should have to use the bonused ships.


You certainly appeared to be comparing TDs to ECM. And going back and reading it again, I read it the same way. So... :-/

At any rate: I think that the question is always going to be whether or not it's effective. If you make it ineffective to fit unbonused modules then you may as well not be able to fit them at all. This seems pretty inarguable. We don't have to look any further than the historic damp nerf to see just how true this is. It went from seeing them on Myrms and Domis and the occasional frig to seeing them never.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Alara IonStorm
#28 - 2012-12-28 01:13:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Liang Nuren wrote:
We don't have to look any further than the historic damp nerf to see just how true this is. It went from seeing them on Myrms and Domis and the occasional frig to seeing them never.

Now who is comparing. Big smile

Most Ship targeting ranges allowed ships to brawl or even kite under a couple of damps after the nerf as well most ships had almost locked up targets by the time Scan Res nerfs took effect and were useless after said lock. It would not be the same for ships that sit at optimal, lose damage at falloff or have trouble tracking. 37.5% is a world of difference there.

37.5% instead of 47.74 is a reasonable nerf to only unbonused ships if they also effect missiles IMO and the word useless would not apply like damps.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#29 - 2012-12-28 01:20:32 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
We don't have to look any further than the historic damp nerf to see just how true this is. It went from seeing them on Myrms and Domis and the occasional frig to seeing them never.

Now who is comparing. Big smile

Most Ship targeting ranges allowed ships to brawl or even kite under a couple of damps after the nerf as well most ships had almost locked up targets by the time Scan Res nerfs took effect and were useless after said lock. It would not be the same for ships that sit at optimal, lose damage at falloff or have trouble tracking. 37.5% is a world of difference there.

37.5% instead of 47.74 is a reasonable nerf to only unbonused ships if they also effect missiles IMO and the word useless would not apply like damps.


Look, I'm not trying to win some argument on metaphorical points. You appeared to equate TDing to ECM, which is just blatantly ******* stupid. Looking back, I *still* read it that way. Maybe it's a cultural thing or maybe I'm just a ******* ******, who knows. Certainly damping is a stronger mechanic than TDing, but it's by no means the total lock out that ECM is.

The point was meant to show that either the mechanic will be effective or it will not be. If 1-2 unbonused TDs doesn't give you a realistic chance of countering a turret ship then there's literally no reason to ever fit them on a hull without a bonus. Some people would call that fantastic, and those people are the ones that want the game to be about nothing more than tank and spank.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2012-12-28 02:29:59 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

I'm sure the situation will receive proper attention once they move forward with the change. I am not really a fan of preemptively nerfing things before the scheduled improvement arrives.

Devs: "We've announced we are going to improve blaster tracking in 6 months. We're nerfing Hyperion grid by 40% today in compensation".
Players: "lolwut?"

-Liang


Funny, it's exactly what they did with drones just now.

CCP Ytterbium in November: "Drones are terribly outdated."
Retribution hits: "Drones now get shot by everyone and their grandma!"
Players: "lolwut?"
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#31 - 2012-12-28 02:42:31 UTC
You frig pilot's and your sense of entitlement...tell you what step out of the frigs and out side of Curse/Pilgrim TD's literally blow on anything else.

Oderint Dum Metuant
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-12-28 03:24:05 UTC
you think TD are bad? wait till you run into my triple SD kite fit! eat it sucka!


saddly i suck at piloting kite frigs so the three thrashers escaped.....working on it. im just a dumb carebear lol
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-12-28 14:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jame Jarl Retief
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
you think TD are bad? wait till you run into my triple SD kite fit! eat it sucka!


saddly i suck at piloting kite frigs so the three thrashers escaped.....working on it. im just a dumb carebear lol


At a guess, you're probably flying a *SD bonused* ship? Maulus maybe? Without the bonus, SD are still limited in their application. The whole point of the thread is that at frigate level TDs perform a little too well on *unbonused* ships. Also rumor has it that missiles might be affected by TDs some time in future, after current changes "settle down". Which would make them even more powerful.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#34 - 2012-12-28 14:49:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Maeltstome
You met 4 ships in a row with no tank who relied on e-war to keep them safe. If they had lots of tanks, speed, DPS AND E-war then i;d be worried... but realy they sacrificed everything for speed and e-war.

A few lucky volleys would kill them most of the time, and tracking disruptors are counter-able by good piloting. The old 18km/s crow dieing to a trash-fit taranis is a good example...
Funky Lazers
Funk Freakers
#35 - 2012-12-28 14:49:36 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:

I'm sure the situation will receive proper attention once they move forward with the change. I am not really a fan of preemptively nerfing things before the scheduled improvement arrives.

Devs: "We've announced we are going to improve blaster tracking in 6 months. We're nerfing Hyperion grid by 40% today in compensation".
Players: "lolwut?"

-Liang


Funny, it's exactly what they did with drones just now.

CCP Ytterbium in November: "Drones are terribly outdated."
Retribution hits: "Drones now get shot by everyone and their grandma!"
Players: "lolwut?"


Lol that made my day!
So true.

Whatever.
Denuo Secus
#36 - 2012-12-28 15:59:18 UTC
I for one like the option to fit ewar on ships without bonus. This makes the game more much diverse. Everything else would be a simple gank&tank game. Sounds boring in comparison. The ability to suprise people with uncommon or unexpected tactics is fun.

Ofc if a certain tactic isn't uncommon anymore we have a balancing problem. But I agree with Liang, TDs are manageable. For instance I had great success with a kiting Executioner fitted with beams. In case I got TDed I just switched to Aurora. Result was a nice WTF effect ^^

Fitting additional ewar isn't for free. Shield tanks lose tank, armor tanks lose other utility (cap, ...) or full tackle.
Tsobai Hashimoto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-12-28 23:21:52 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:
you think TD are bad? wait till you run into my triple SD kite fit! eat it sucka!


saddly i suck at piloting kite frigs so the three thrashers escaped.....working on it. im just a dumb carebear lol


At a guess, you're probably flying a *SD bonused* ship? Maulus maybe? Without the bonus, SD are still limited in their application. The whole point of the thread is that at frigate level TDs perform a little too well on *unbonused* ships. Also rumor has it that missiles might be affected by TDs some time in future, after current changes "settle down". Which would make them even more powerful.



True it is a Maulus but it is a cheesy ship to run into still, and I lied, its double damped, was thinking of my Fleet setup...for solo its just to SD

But still, nerfing somethings lock range to under 7km is pretty lame lol but i like it
Umega
Solis Mensa
#38 - 2012-12-29 03:29:28 UTC
Damn that ******* that spent years on the forums preaching about TDs effectiveness. Trying to convince people to break away from cookie-cutter fits and ideals of the time.. that TDs were worth using more frequently than they were being used, that they were infact better in a wider range of circumstances/scenarios that people mostly utalized, and were a better option over other ewar/tank options..

That ******* should be given a good talking to.. or at the very least, tipped large sums of money....

 Ume-Pro Studios
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