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Investment in Corps
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Bakkhai
Talking In Stations Corporation
#1 - 2012-12-20 18:57:29 UTC
Does anyone use the shares system? I've seen bonds issued and investment opportunities - is anything legit in the investment part of EVE?
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-12-20 18:59:05 UTC
Bakkhai wrote:
is anything legit in the investment part of EVE?


Generally, no. If you have to ask, you won't be able to tell the difference.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#3 - 2012-12-20 19:11:21 UTC
Bakkhai wrote:
- is anything legit in the investment part of EVE?

99% of the bonds offered here are fake...


shar'ra phone home
Bakkhai
Talking In Stations Corporation
#4 - 2012-12-20 19:27:29 UTC
Well I just talked to a guy that puts out Bonds and he seemed legit.

But that mechanic seems pretty broken. Too bad - image the trade/market gameplay that could be created.
shar'ra matcevsovski
Doomheim
#5 - 2012-12-20 19:36:33 UTC
well that was quick... since u had to ask 30 min earler...how did he convince you?

shar'ra phone home
Bakkhai
Talking In Stations Corporation
#6 - 2012-12-20 19:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Bakkhai
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
well that was quick... since u had to ask 30 min earler...how did he convince you?

LOL, he didn't try to sell me on his plan (I think), and I wasn't looking to invest - but he wanted to explain how he does it and that there are legit investment opportunities. Player created though, not an EVE mechanic.

He could be a crook, I don't know, and I won't risk ISK in an area that has ZERO measures to protect investment. especially when you can just delete "shamed" alts and start all over again.

So who are these guys and are they preying on the most ignorant new players around? If not, how in the world do they overcome the skepticism?

Markets = Shopping in EVE. That's too limited - there's so much potential here.
Joshua Vaughn Lampen
Archer Investments Initiative
#7 - 2012-12-20 20:04:44 UTC
Bakkhai wrote:
shar'ra matcevsovski wrote:
well that was quick... since u had to ask 30 min earler...how did he convince you?

LOL, he didn't try to sell me on his plan (I think), and I wasn't looking to invest - but he wanted to explain how he does it and that there are legit investment opportunities. Player created though, not an EVE mechanic.

He could be a crook, I don't know, and I won't risk ISK in an area that has ZERO measures to protect investment. especially when you can just delete "shamed" alts and start all over again.

So who are these guys and are they preying on the most ignorant new players around? If not, how in the world do they overcome the skepticism?


Quite frankly you'll never overcome it completely. Not in EVE. People will always invoke Phaser Inc., TITANS4U and other well-known scams. Even after you build up your reputation people can simply say well he's clearly just waiting to get even more people on his scam and THEN he'll run off. There's no way you can ever prove that you're not, its just the nature of the marketplace.

There are those that have largely overcome skepticism because they've got such an expansive history of deals that the community trusts them or their loaning mechanics are based on collateral. With uncollateralized loans or funds its all down to your name and how you deal with the community which is very hard to do except with time and as I said earlier time is no guarantee that the community will trust you 100%.

It all comes down to the nature of the game. When given considerable freedom people will push it to its limits, both good and bad.
Jay Aaron
M-Spec Industrial Resources Ltd
Agents of Fortune
#8 - 2012-12-21 04:40:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jay Aaron
We use the share system, though it is not without its flaws. Most importantly, there is no additional layer of security or protection offered by the share system. When making an investment, you are placing full trust in the issuer of that investment.

A couple of points of advice: 1) check out the reputation of the issuer and the performance track record of the investment, 2) find out who the other major investors are and check their reputations, i.e., follow the smart money, 3) don't invest more ISK than you are willing to put at risk. Even the most reputable issuers with strong historic track records have exposure to market volatility and the possiblility of decline in investment value.
flakeys
Doomheim
#9 - 2012-12-21 15:25:44 UTC
Jay Aaron wrote:


find out who the other major investors are and check their reputations, i.e., follow the smart money



Allways found this rule to be a waste to be honest.Never ever follow others no matter how good their investments have gone , allways think for yourself.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Jay Aaron
M-Spec Industrial Resources Ltd
Agents of Fortune
#10 - 2012-12-23 19:40:24 UTC
flakeys wrote:
Jay Aaron wrote:


find out who the other major investors are and check their reputations, i.e., follow the smart money


Allways found this rule to be a waste to be honest.Never ever follow others no matter how good their investments have gone , allways think for yourself.

Good of you to offer that perspective, as some readers might misinterpret my statement. For clarification, in this context the term "follow" means "to watch closely", "to have a keen interest in" or "to understand".... much like one might "follow" his favorite football team or one might "follow" r/l equity markets. Put differently, players new to the EVE investment arena might serve themselves well to take an interest in and attempt to understand the types of investments more seasoned traders with successful track records are making.

My apologies if anyone mistook the statement to be a suggestion that one might be successful by blindly making an investment just because others have made that investment.
Connery Domino
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-12-24 15:18:32 UTC
There are plenty of corps out there that you can invest in. The best way to find out about these though is by word of mouth. The eve forums are typically like Jita chat.
Every One
Triglavian Directive
S h a d o w
#12 - 2012-12-24 15:45:14 UTC
Connery Domino wrote:
There are plenty of corps out there that you can invest in. The best way to find out about these though is by word of mouth. The eve forums are typically like Jita chat.

I'd say more like Dodixie chat. Most Jita trolls don't bother writing here "cuz dey dun no hau" and a post saying something like the following wouldn't appeal too much

"Hai plz in vest
You giv me 1 mil isk
I giv you 2 mil isk
Easy gold
E
a
s
y"

Also they can't spam too much in these forums so...meh...

Hi Dodixie chatters
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-12-26 03:56:24 UTC
flakeys wrote:
Jay Aaron wrote:


find out who the other major investors are and check their reputations, i.e., follow the smart money



Allways found this rule to be a waste to be honest.Never ever follow others no matter how good their investments have gone , allways think for yourself.


If an uncollateralized loan gets 3b in offers in the first 30 minutes by characters in NPC corps with absolutely no posting, corp, or kill history, something might be fishy.

IRT OP: the in-game shares system is absolutely useless for this kind of dealings. Shares in-game are tightly connected to power over the corporation, up to and including the forced removal of the CEO and takeover. There is also no forced recall system, so from the moment you are given even one share of a corporation, you are an existential threat to them forever.

However investments and loans are regularly conducted both here and in private (within corporations, alliances, friends, business partners, ...). Investors are tracked through out of game means - spreadsheets, or simply forum posts. There is no in-game mechanic enforcing a fair deal, or even making sure you get what you were promised. Therefore make sure everything you put your money in is secured either by collateral you hold yourself, mutual trust with the second party, or a neutral third party trusted by both of you.
Tul Breetai
Impromptu Asset Requisition
#14 - 2012-12-26 09:30:15 UTC
I honestly distribute profit via dividends to shareholders, shares are sold at a set price and I use their money to make iskies for all of us. Only close friends though, because not only can I scam them, but they can just take my shares and never give them back and make me do more math I don't wanna do. It's a half-assed mechanic, really...

There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Freighdee Katt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-12-26 19:02:44 UTC
Joshua Vaughn Lampen wrote:
Quite frankly you'll never overcome it completely. Not in EVE. People will always invoke Phaser Inc., TITANS4U and other well-known scams. Even after you build up your reputation people can simply say well he's clearly just waiting to get even more people on his scam and THEN he'll run off. There's no way you can ever prove that you're not, its just the nature of the marketplace.

Well, there is Chribba. He's either the only guy in the game that everyone believes in and is right about . . . or he's playing the longest con in the history of MMOs. Maybe we all wake up one morning to massively.com blog posts about how he finally pulled the trigger on a scam so epic that when it was over he was left owning CCP in real life.

EvE is supposed to suck.  Wait . . . what was the question?
Jay Aaron
M-Spec Industrial Resources Ltd
Agents of Fortune
#16 - 2012-12-28 06:08:16 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
the in-game shares system is absolutely useless for this kind of dealings. Shares in-game are tightly connected to power over the corporation, up to and including the forced removal of the CEO and takeover...

Not entirely correct, but the exception is somewhat unconventional. In order to exercise any form of control over the corporation, one must initiate a shareholder vote. That vote might be enforceable, such as the voting in of a new CEO, or it might merely make a desired action an unenforceable matter of record. The kicker is that you must be a member of the corporation as well as a shareholder in order to initiate a vote. Thus, a shell corporation formed for the purpose of functioning as an investment vehicle, with a single character, or group of alt characters all controlled by one person, can make use of the share system without exposure to the risks of change in control or corporate theft. An outsider can buy as many shares as he wants but he will not be able to propose the vote needed to enact a change in control.